My new room sucks...

[Joey_V]

Man, does it suck.

Yeah, it's one big huge hollow hole in the wall. The Summits have been giving me so much grief the past few days that I feel like throwing something out the window. My system sounded SO good right before I moved and now I'm getting only a small ounce of that type of audio reproduction. It's definitely the room - it's way too live.

My old place was a lot "deader" and more conducive to these dipoles. I've gotten so frustrated that I went to an audio dealer (audio consultants) and listened to some other speakers (802D, WP8) just to get my bearings straight.

Nearing the point of downsizing my system just so I can fit it into my bedroom again. The living area is way too big and the windows are too large behind the speakers. The ceilings are like 12 feet tall.... too much.

I just want a small 14x14 room.... that's all.

Anyway, I'm going to plot on how I can tame this room - I seriously need absorbers.... I was hoping to give out auditions this week to my local audiophile buddies, but I'm going to postpone - I'm too embarassed with the current sound.

Stay tuned....

.... unless I get so angry that I sell off the Summits move to bookshelves and move the system to my bedroom.

Ugh.... I hate moving.

 

[Rich]

Hey Joey,

Don't let it get you down. Like anything else, it is just going to take some time and effort to get it right again. For starters, keep playing with positioning. Move them out, move them back move them side to side, toe them in more and less, change your seating position. Keep tweaking until you find what works for this room. Every room is different and will require a different setup than what you had before.

Consider posting a diagram of the room, showing walls, windows, speaker and seating locations etc., so that we can bounce some ideas off your head. Room treatments will definitely help if the room is too live. Get a thick rug on the floor. Get some absorption on the walls, etc. Also, consider giving Ethan at Real Traps a call and get his perspective. He may be able to point you in a good direction to get started taming the room response.

A large room like that should be able to sound better than any small room. Don't give up too soon. Just keep playing with it. You also may need some time for your ears to adjust to large room acoustics.

Also, check all your connections again. Make sure everything is in phase and properly wired. A simple error there could really mess with your sound. Good luck with it.

 

[C.A.P]

Ahh the room blues! Yup they come and go! Post the dimensions and pending you don't have door walls behind the speakers I think I can help ! bigger rooms are better for Logan's but you must have the set up just right! Them Summits will sing again ! Its just that you are used to near field listening that has you all confused.

 

[Burke]

Man, does it suck.
Anyway, I'm going to plot on how I can tame this room - I seriously need absorbers.... I was hoping to give out auditions this week to my local audiophile buddies, but I'm going to postpone - I'm too embarassed with the current sound.

Joey,

Feel free to drop by this weekend and see what I have done to tame my room, I now have 10 2x8foot DIY bass,traps in the room, it may give you some ideas of what to do, or at least where to start. Actually too dead at the moment one or two are going to have to go.

 

[Joey_V]

Thanks fellas...

Have a rug on the floor... all hardwood underneath that.

I did do an experiment and I put a towel behind each panel and this brought back memories of what my speakers sounded like in my old set up. I really enjoyed my old set up, a testament that I just kept the speakers and moved up the components to improve the sound further.

Anyway, the towels tightened up the image which leads me to believe that the front wall is WAY too live - I need absorption for it.

Complex passages got way to busy for me and I actually ended up with a headache today... pre-towel.



The towel definitely improved the overall presentation - but I feel that it is not absorbing enough of the sound and I still get muddy imaging when volume is turned up or complex passages arise.

I have no doubt that a pair of good absorbers behind each panel will tame the room and improve my sound to back to baseline (or better).

Time will tell.

I will work on first reflections later.

 

[tonepub]

If you have room issues, they won't go away with different speakers.

Once you get your room properly treated, the sound of Summits in a big
room will spoil you for anything else. The ultimate springiness of your floor
might limit some bass slam, but you should be able to take care of most of it.

Check out GIK acoustics... www.gikacoustics.com

Throw a pair of Tri-traps in each corner to start. Get some of their
242 panels and if you can space them about a foot apart on your whole rear
wall, then one or two more on the side walls at the first reflection point.

That will be a good place to start. If at all possible, get your rack out from inbetween your speakers. That's been one of the best sound tweeks I've ever done. It really opens up the soundstage a lot.

If you have time, get yourself a digital laser measuring tool from Leica or there is a comparable one at Home Depot. Try and get your speakers equal distances from the rear wall with the same amount of toe in on each one. Also, concentrate more on having your ears at your listening position an equal distance from the panels rather than worrying about the speakers being equal distances from the side walls. Sometimes that works, sometimes not, but having your ears at an equal distance from the panels will save you a lot of grief and eliminate channel imbalance and imaging issues.

I know when we set mine up here, they went from being somewhat diffuse to all of a sudden really getting locked in tight in a matter of a few inches.

Last but not least, get a good bass test tone disc and do a few sweeps. You might find that there is a bit of a bump (either up or down) in your lower bass region from about 100 hz down. This is where that 25 and 50hz controls will really come in handy. I had mine set all wrong at first. When we measured the speakers in the room, I found I had a suckout at 50hz and a big bump up at 30hz. Once you get those bass controls really nailed, you will be amazed at how much better they will sound.

Good luck. Now the work gets hard in the big room. No more listening to headphones anymore. But the results will be worth it, as I'm sure anyone here who has their Summits in a big room will tell you.

Small adjustments and get a couple rolls of blue or green painters tape for the floor. (it peels off easier than masking tape) Move, measure and move again! The tape will help you get back to where you were should you go too far!

 

[amey01]

My new room sux too.

Time and you will get it better. As Rich said, a LOT of it is simply getting your ears used to a different acousitc environment.

Make sure all your connections are right, and play with treatments.

But above all else, just give your ears time to adjust to the new acoustic environment. WAIT at least a few weeks before trying things!

 

[sleepysurf]

Joey, this is a FANTASTIC opportunity! You're a single guy right (still have that girlfriend)? Here's what to do... get LOTS of room treatments... absorption panels, bass traps, etc... and use a MIX of panels... RealTraps, GIK, room-tunes, etc. If possible, get them in different gaudy colors, ideally ones that clash with your room. Spend a few weeks tweaking their placement, until you have achieved absolute audio nirvana. Now, you'll have a dual-purpose room... not only a place where you can close your eyes and be transported to audio heaven, but one which also serves as a screening room for prospective "JWW's" (Joey's Wife Wannabes), who MUST pass this first litmus test to move on to the next level! Let the competition begin!

P.S. If you think matching components is tough, just wait till you enter the bottomless pit of room acoustics!

 

[Bernard]

Also, concentrate more on having your ears at your listening position an equal distance from the panels rather than worrying about the speakers being equal distances from the side walls. Sometimes that works, sometimes not, but having your ears at an equal distance from the panels will save you a lot of grief and eliminate channel imbalance and imaging issues.

Jeff, I remember reading on a thread in this forum an "audio guru" stating that the symmetry we all usually try for is wrong, i.e. the speakers should not be equidistant from the side walls. Care to comment? You are saying almost the same thing in the quote, without going to the extent of saying that symmetry is wrong.

 

[C.A.P]

If you have room issues, they won't go away with different speakers.I agree with that 120% , couldnt have said it better.

Once you get your room properly treated, the sound of Summits in a big
room will spoil you for anything else. The ultimate springiness of your floor
might limit some bass slam, but you should be able to take care of most of it.Larger room are Friends of Logan's

Check out GIK acoustics... www.gikacoustics.com

Throw a pair of Tri-traps in each corner to start. Get some of their
242 panels and if you can space them about a foot apart on your whole rear
wall, then one or two more on the side walls at the first reflection point.

That will be a good place to start. If at all possible, get your rack out from inbetween your speakers. That's been one of the best sound tweeks I've ever done. It really opens up the soundstage a lot.
Another great pointer , I to did this and it helps !

If you have time, get yourself a digital laser measuring tool from Leica or there is a comparable one at Home Depot. Try and get your speakers equal distances from the rear wall with the same amount of toe in on each one. Also, concentrate more on having your ears at your listening position an equal distance from the panels rather than worrying about the speakers being equal distances from the side walls. Sometimes that works, sometimes not, but having your ears at an equal distance from the panels will save you a lot of grief and eliminate channel imbalance and imaging issues.Measuring the distance from the panel is crutial. Do not take this lightly !

I know when we set mine up here, they went from being somewhat diffuse to all of a sudden really getting locked in tight in a matter of a few inches.

Last but not least, get a good bass test tone disc and do a few sweeps. You might find that there is a bit of a bump (either up or down) in your lower bass region from about 100 hz down. This is where that 25 and 50hz controls will really come in handy. I had mine set all wrong at first. When we measured the speakers in the room, I found I had a suckout at 50hz and a big bump up at 30hz. Once you get those bass controls really nailed, you will be amazed at how much better they will sound.

Good luck. Now the work gets hard in the big room. No more listening to headphones anymore. But the results will be worth it, as I'm sure anyone here who has their Summits in a big room will tell you.
The headphone coment is dead on the nail !

Small adjustments and get a couple rolls of blue or green painters tape for the floor. (it peels off easier than masking tape) Move, measure and move again! The tape will help you get back to where you were should you go too far!

Very well said ! The room is the key! I have heard the Summits in a big room and they SHINE! DO use lots of Blue tape ! It will give you reference to where you moved them from. Go buy a roll or two of insulation just for test sake to throw in the corners . There is a thread here about trying it just to see if treatment panels will help !

 

[TomDac]

See this as a great challenge, Joey! Playing with room acoustics and positioning is so fun, IMHO!

 

[DTB300]

Man, does it suck.

Probably it is different than what you were used to.

Yeah, it's one big huge hollow hole in the wall. The Summits have been giving me so much grief the past few days that I feel like throwing something out the window. My system sounded SO good right before I moved and now I'm getting only a small ounce of that type of audio reproduction. It's definitely the room - it's way too live.

CORRECT!!! It is the room. What you were used to, in the way of sound, is not the same in this room. Now you have experienced first hand what a room can do to a setup.

My old place was a lot "deader" and more conducive to these dipoles. I've gotten so frustrated that I went to an audio dealer (audio consultants) and listened to some other speakers (802D, WP8) just to get my bearings straight.

To get deader, you need absorption, and lots of it. You do not need to go out and listen to other systems. You know what you setup sounds like and the sound you are looking to get. Work on the room and the setup. Start with corner treatments and first reflection points with the money you can afford at this time. Glenn and Ethan can help you out for starters.

Nearing the point of downsizing my system just so I can fit it into my bedroom again. The living area is way too big and the windows are too large behind the speakers. The ceilings are like 12 feet tall.... too much.

12ft - man I would kill to have that much room.

I just want a small 14x14 room.... that's all.

And you do not want a square room either. But a square room can be made to sound better with treatments, and so can your new room. If I can make my audio bunker (partial basement with low ceilings) sound good, so can you.

Anyway, I'm going to plot on how I can tame this room - I seriously need absorbers.... I was hoping to give out auditions this week to my local audiophile buddies, but I'm going to postpone - I'm too embarassed with the current sound.

You need to decide how you are going to proceed. Will you go DIY? Will you go with GIK? Will you go with Real Traps? If not DIY, then call either Glenn or Ethan (once you decide on the company you are going to use) and start working on getting the room better sounding.

If it was me, I would treat corners from floor up to as (high) much as you can afford, then behind the speakers on the front wall and between them, on the side walls for first reflection and along side the speakers, and behind your seating position on the rear wall. Diffusion may even be a possibility on rear wall depending on your distance from it. These treatments will give you the best bang for the $$$ to start.

 

[DrJRapp]

Joey

I can well identify with your feelings in the matter. When we moved last year from our previous house to our new one I had the same letdown. My prior room wasn't as lively as the current room and It took me a lot of time to find the best location for the Summits. I wound up with a location which is off center on the long wall and actually helps the room layout. The final move that helped everything fall into place was adjusting the rearward rake of the Summits...that's a trick I remember learing from one of your threads.

The most important thing is to tame the reflections off any windows. Glass behind dipoles tends to lead to a very diffuse and confused image, and glass in front and to the sides of the Summts make them sound bright. You don't need expensive panels to tame the reflections ...I did it in my room with fiberglass fabric cellular blinds (duofolds or whatever) that I can lower when I'm listening and raise when I'm not....(helps on the WAF factor). These blinds can be obtained at either off the shelf or custom sizes and colors from Home Depot, Lowes etc etc.

 

[sleepysurf]

Jeff, I remember reading on a thread in this forum an "audio guru" stating that the symmetry we all usually try for is wrong, i.e. the speakers should not be equidistant from the side walls. Care to comment? You are saying almost the same thing in the quote, without going to the extent of saying that symmetry is wrong.

I believe this references a post about Roger Sanders (Sanders Sound Systems, formerly Innersound), who advocates placing his ESL speakers straddling a room corner, or otherwise assymetric, to minimize the rear wave from canceling the front. His setup at RMAF '07 demo'd that concept with great effect. For those of us whose speakers must be located parallel to a single wall, you can try also try "extreme toe-in", to eliminate that interference. Using absorption (or diffusion) panels behind the speakers also yields a similar effect. Many of us believe that, second to speaker choice, room acoustics are next most important in defining overall sound. I'm currently in the process of addressing that issue in my family/listening room.

In addition to the great resources of RealTraps, GLK, and others, I just found this (relatively unknown) source offering a wide selection of acoustic treatments with designer fabrics...
http://www.soundprooffoam.com/soft-sound-acoustic-panels.html?section=image

I just received their sample packet and specs, and my wife said "Oooh, I like those" when she saw the fabric swatches! Sounds promising!

 

[David Matz]

Joey,

Per my other post, run out to Home Depot or Lowes and get as many bags of RXX insulation you can carry. This could be a good short term solution until you decide which way you want to go with the room treatments. You can return the stuff later.

 

[tonepub]

Jeff, I remember reading on a thread in this forum an "audio guru" stating that the symmetry we all usually try for is wrong, i.e. the speakers should not be equidistant from the side walls. Care to comment? You are saying almost the same thing in the quote, without going to the extent of saying that symmetry is wrong.

Hi Bernard,

I've had about three acoustics guys tell me that if I could avoid having my speakers equal distance from the left and right walls, that was better because it broke up standing waves, etc better.

My speakers are 7 feet from the left wall and 8 from the right and it works better than when I had them centered in the room as far as coupling the bass.

The problem with acoustics is there are a number of theories.

The people I have talked to all agreed on having your ears in as close to
the exact middle as possible, so I'm going with that. I've noticed that with the Leica disto to measure, being about 6-12 inches off in the center will equate to about a 1db channel imbalance, so it makes sense so far.

Also for Joey, with that high ceiling, you may also want to hang some GIK (or other suitable panels) from the ceiling. I experimented in my room which has a peaked ceiling going from 81/2 feet to 13 1/2 feet and this was the final touch that really widened the soundstage!

I would say all told I've spent about 2500 bucks tops on room treatment and it has made more difference than spending 2500 anywhere else. When I had the guys from Sonicweld out around Christmas to set up their Active EQ speakers, they said that they usually take three days to get it dialed in and they only spent three hours in my room, because when they measured it I didn't have any issues.

Once you get your room done, you will be amazed at how much more music your system is capable of revealing and it will be much easier to get the upgrades you want, because you will be able to hear that much further into the system!

Enjoy.

And I totally agree with this being a filter for screening girls....

It worked for me!

 

[Joey_V]

Thanks fellas...

I know it's the room - there's no two ways about it.

I know it's going to cost me to fix up the room, but I'm prepared for the investment... I just need to make sure that whatever treatments I get, I can reuse in my next place (and the next, etc...).

Tough challenge for sure, I wanted to hit the ground running, but apparently the only way I can listen to music now is if I put the towels behind the panels. Which isn't so bad I suppose! LOL

But I am still looking at other speakers - perhaps I will downsize or something. I am really missing a system in my bedroom, I used to rock out on my own. I am beginning to think I can load my bedroom with Vantages and move the components in here...

Ah either way, it's a fun fun time!

Here are some sneak peak pics for all y'all interested.... it's definitely a nice place - just not as acoustically dead as my old room was after I got my way with it. I used to have my closet to the left which prevented any first reflections - and then I had vertical blinds on the right which did the same. I had a lot of furniture which helped the space out... I just liked the sound a lot.

And it wasn't purely like headphones - towards the latter part (post Chicago gathering at my place), I began listening all the way to the other end of the wall. A good 8.5 feet (speakers spread approx 7.5 ft). I actually began to like the sound of non-nearfield listening and how the band presented itself.

Anyway, back to the current room... I used all that I learned during my experience with MLs over the past 3 years to set up the room. The speakers are in good position - the toe in is aggressive as I like it (trying to remove room sidewall interactions this way also). I have Jason's tilt spikes on and the panel is in good position to my ears.

With the towels on, I get phenomenal imaging with voices.... the only thing is that it doesn't absorb much so I get convoluted imaging once I turn up the volume or once I get into complex tracks. The dipole characteristic of the Summits are painful in this room.

Pic pics pics....

 

[Joey_V]

As you can see, it's not AS BAD as it seems... or atleast as bad as I made it out to be.

If you come by and listen (and aren't well seasoned), the system actually sounds pretty good.

HOWEVER, I've heard it the way I feel it should sound.... I know how every component added/took away from the sound and I know how the sound progressed as I go from single-ended RCA on the Cary 05 preamp to XLR, then from Squeezebox DACs to routing it to the Cary 306/200 then to playing the exact album from the CD, and also going from class A/B on the Plinius to full class A.

I know what each of those incremental changes do and I feel as if I know my system by heart (almost).

It's just that there is something amiss in this room... it is definitely that this needs more absorption.. the backwave is killing me.

Thanks again fellas... I'll keep you posted.

 

[aliveatfive]

Joey -

Can't be sure without being there, BUT it looks to me that the large expanse of glass is what's killing the sound. Have you tried other placement positions? Is there any way you can have the speakers flank the fireplace?

 

[jtwrace]

Joey,

Per my other post, run out to Home Depot or Lowes and get as many bags of RXX insulation you can carry. This could be a good short term solution until you decide which way you want to go with the room treatments. You can return the stuff later.

NOT very honest though.