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And how much can it cost them, really? The metal stators are preformed from someone else. They just cut them to size and coat them. The mylar is the same as in their newer models. So is the double-sided sticky tape. The materials are very simple and easy to obtain. And for what they charge for them, they make a handsome profit off each pair sold.

As I said above, the parts for the panels are very basic. It is much easier for ML to support these panels than it is for an electronics manufacturer to support their electronics, which contain thousands of parts, including tubes that may be hard to source. I mean, really, what is so hard to source? The metal stator material is easy to get. The mylar is no different than what they are already using. The tape is no different. What else is there? Besides, the new facility they are moving to manufactures all the drivers for Paradigm in house. You are telling me they can make woofers and tweeters, but they can't form a couple of metal stators and affix them around a sheet of mylar? Give me a break.

This is exactly what I was going to bring up.

I'm a mechanical engineer and have some basic high volume manufacturing background and know how. While I don't have knowledge of the assembly and components of every panel, I think it is fairly safe to assume that most configurations share construction materials, possibly even in a bulk form that is sized during assembly (i.e. rolls of mylar, rolls of the foam perimeter, etc.).

Perforated metal for the stators can be made by any of the many perforators out there. Drawings/specs exist already...There's nothing special about perforated metal. There are a gazillion patterns that can be picked from out of a catalog.

Do the paint lines change per panel configuration? I would doubt that.

Panel assembly jigs exist, why would ML scrap them?

How much model/configuration specific material would have to be kept in stock? I can't imagine that there would be huge amounts of money tied up in this.

I see this as planed obsolescence, force current owners of legacy products to upgrade over time. Unfortunately I can't play that game. While I'm doing much better than a lot of people during these bad economic times, I in no way will be able to afford a new set of ML speakers. My Ascents are at least 10 years old (purchased used last year), I expect them to last a lot longer. When I bought them, I expected to be able to buy new panels. If I buy another set of MLs (after hopefully being able to sell what I have), I expect that the new set will be used and more than a few years old (unless the lotto goes my way).

How long before the current models are considered "legacy" products and panels are no longer available?

I'm shaking my head over this one. I've held the ML brand with very high regards due to the sound and construction quality and longevity of each model. I feel let down right now.
 
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Rich - Excellent last post.Well said and I agree with you 100%.
 
...With MartinLogan jobs going first, and now the hockey gold :( And you may barely have noticed that Canada also has more golds than the US. Clearly, US super power days are over, but more importantly...
...Canada ....just....might....be.....the.....new....(gasp)....China.....

Dude, what have you been smoking. Time to lay off a bit.
 
This is exactly what I was going to bring up.

I'm a mechanical engineer and have some basic high volume manufacturing background and know how. While I don't have knowledge of the assembly and components of every panel, I think it is fairly safe to assume that most configurations share construction materials, possibly even in a bulk form that is sized during assembly (i.e. rolls of mylar, rolls of the foam perimeter, etc.).

Perforated metal for the stators can be made by any of the many perforators out there. Drawings/specs exist already...There's nothing special about perforated metal. There are a gazillion patterns that can be picked from out of a catalog.

Do the paint lines change per panel configuration? I would doubt that.

Panel assembly jigs exist, why would ML scrap them?

How much model/configuration specific material would have to be kept in stock? I can't imagine that there would be huge amounts of money tied up in this.

I see this as planed obsolescence, force current owners of legacy products to upgrade over time. Unfortunately I can't play that game. While I'm doing much better than a lot of people during these bad economic times, I in no way will be able to afford a new set of ML speakers. My Ascents are at least 10 years old (purchased used last year), I expect them to last a lot longer. When I bought them, I expected to be able to buy new panels. If I buy another set of MLs (after hopefully being able to sell what I have), I expect that the new set will be used and more than a few years old (unless the lotto goes my way).

How long before the current models are considered "legacy" products and panels are no longer available?

I'm shaking my head over this one. I've held the ML brand with very high regards due to the sound and construction quality and longevity of each model. I feel let down right now.

Well, I've been sitting on the sidelines a long time on this topic, but I do want to shed some light on a few things I know from my own experience (35 years in Product Development and now Director of Operations for a high volume manufacturer).

I quoted Kruppy's post because there are a few specifics I want to address.

First with regard to perforated metal. It really isn't as easy as you might think when you start talking about the sort of precision required for a highly aesthetic product like our stators. Repeatability is a difficult challenge. Perf tools wear out quickly, and it's difficult to maintain registration from part to part, especially where there is a solid border such as on the stators. The slightest shift will absolutely be noticeable visually. Couple that with variations in raw material from coil to coil and the fact that it needs to be formed after it's been punched and there are a lot of factors that contribute to yield issues. Perf isn't cheap, it can add as much as 50% to the cost of our products. I know this for a fact because we use perf on a number of our products and we use the exact same supplier as Martin Logan.

With regard to obsolescence of legacy product. WOW, this is a tough one. Trust me, I don't relish the thought of not being able to obtain replacement panels for my CLS's. None the less, I can completely understand the rational for discontinuing the process. The notion of holding components and finished goods in perpetuity just doesn't work anymore guys. The fact is that inventory doesn't generate revenue no matter how you slice it. I'm faced with inventory challenges every month and my organization requires inventory reductions in my plant every month to the tune of $150K. Factor in launching and ramping up for the new products that will sustain the vitality of the company and I REALLY struggle to meet my goals. A key area of focus is on E&O (Excess and Obsolete). While I do want to support the occasional customer that want's or needs replacements for something they bought 5, 10 or even 15 years ago, the fact of the matter is that I have usually had to rid myself of that inventory a long time prior. Can I make what they want? Usually yes, but since it rarely is a product that we currently support that means interrupting our suppliers from the task of meeting current production, pulling old tooling out of mothballs, hoping that the localized experts that once ran it are still around or praying that the control plans utilized at the time are robust enough to stand the test of time and evaluating current pricing, because let's face it, prices continue to change. It always translates to escalated costs, long lead times, interruptions to current production and reduced margins. Always.

E&O is the bane of many business's existence. It is NEVER a leading profit center. It takes up critical space and demands more labor than all other products in the plant. I guarantee you that if you need 2 stator panels, 1 piece of mylar and 7 pieces of strut for a replacement stator panel assembly, what you'll likely find in inventory is 1 panel that's damaged, a piece of mylar that is the wrong size and 5 or 6 of the struts. If you are working to meet plant productivity goals you'll likely need to run it after hours or on the weekend because once you plan your production schedule around meeting your normal goals you're pretty much optimized for that. Factor in tooling setups and tracking down shop drawings or Quality documents etc. and it just get's painful.

All of that is fine enough if you're talking about some mom and pop shop catering to the needs of a nieche market, but that's not the type of organization we're talking about here. Martin Logan is indeed trying to compete at a much higher level. That's exactly why they need to expand into markets that offer increased market share and penetration. Don't get me wrong, I'm a dedicated high end two channel dinosaur, but I also know that if ML doesn't have a diverse enough offering to serve as the foundation for the business they certainly won't be around long enough to sell us any kind of product, be it entry level Motion series home theater speakers or the CLX (and it's successors we hope). In these times it's all about generating revenue. I don't have access to Shorelines P&L, but I suspect that the key drivers are the same as with any vibrant business - top line growth, reductions on the expense side, strict goal setting with adherence to said goals resulting in increased profitability.

When I joined my company 7 years ago we were faced with a challenge with one of our brands. The company was headquartered in Camarillo, CA (neither a low cost manufacturing center nor a mecca for suppliers). We were facing declining revenues due to newer, more affordable product offerings from our competitors and rising costs due to our plant location. We had excess capacity at one of our other factories and a new design center in Denver. We made the tough decision to close the Camarillo facility, move some of our production folks to Alabama and some design folks to Denver. It was a tough transition, but eventually we were able to drive product costs down and improve quality and yield because the plant in Eufaula had more capabilities to leverage purchasing initiatives, a much larger quality department and much better capital equipment than we could have ever hoped for in Camarillo. Centralizing design resources in Denver allowed us to carry staff that could specialize in specific disciplines (Industrial Design, Optics, Thermal design, Mechanical Engineers, etc.) that would have been prohibitive at each of the manufacturing sites (I was working with 7 at the time). It meant more travel, but it allowed us to increase our focus on specifics of each product design while maintaining overall brand identities and product mix. Long story short we grew 25% in 2008, and even in the downturn last year we were only down 8% year over year. In our world that translated to market share increase because our competitors were down much more that that.

One last observation with regard to China. I expect to see more companies actually moving OUT of China. As Jim pointed out, environmental conditions will contine to dictate inevitable cost increases as RoHS moves forward (July 1, 2010 in the case of legislation affecting our business). Many of our Chinese suppliers simply can't meet the new requirements or, in the process of meeting them have lost their cost advantages over other best-shore suppliers. Coupled with increased transportation cost by water (where many shipping companies are actually "parking" ships on the water to inflate demand) and other factors that impact lead times - we simply have found that we can get better quality product faster by engaging suppliers in North America, specifically Canada and Mexico.

I'm just sayin'......
 
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and it just get's painful.

It may well get painful. That's why we pay BIG money for our speakers. That's why ML pocket big money when we make a transaction with them. These 'ain't $500 Sonys.

High end audiophiles are a picky bunch, but the flipside is that high end manufacturers can basically name their price and we'll pay it. As long as they produce a sound to match then us audiophiles will pay anything.

.........But (if I do extend myslef and pay extra) I damn straight expect a little certain something extra (like good support, good customer service, etc) for the privilege!!!!!

"Getting painful" is no excuse. It is all part of dealing in high-end products. ML customers are going to expect more than Sony customers - that shouldn't come as a surprise. With respect Tim, I don't think you are involved in manufacturing a product as exclusive and high-end as Martin Logan. To prove it, ARC do it, McIntosh do it, and so do Jaguar cars (to name but a few).
 
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Where are the SoundLabs ESL's produced? Anybody know?
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Sound Lab is located in Gunnison, Utah, a small town 125 miles south of Salt Lake City.

Soundlabs can go very low and sound great. I heard a pair recently but they are HUGE!. I'm sure ML could make a full range panel with deep bass but it would have to be 8 to 9 feet tall X 4+ four feet wide like the Soundlabs. It would require a very large room and be ultra-expensive but then so were the Statements.
You're partly right. They would have to be wide to reduce dipole cancellation. As for the rest it's a matter of design and implementation. Sound Lab speakers employ a faceted geometry approximating an arc which in turn give a figure-8 radiation pattern, creating a virtual line source.

Jeff, I meant to respond to this earlier but I forgot. Do you seriously believe this? Certainly this decision would never have been made while Gayle ran the company. Does Roger Sanders still support every speaker he ever made? What about Quad? Soundlabs? Magnepan? Bose?

Ok, I just threw that last one in there to see if you were paying attention. But you get my point.
I cannot speak for other manufacturers, but Sound Lab, in business since 1978, supports every speaker they ever made except their first model, the R-1. I was told they could not provide replacement panels for the R-1 because some materials are no longer available.

Sound Lab dealer disclosure.
 
But as I have said before, DO NOT WORRY too much about the panels - if ML stops the supply, someone WILL step in with an alternative. It'd be a good setup company for an ex-ML employee or two, should they ever get made redundant:D


the problem is they probably have patents on these items which means they can just put them to sleep if they want. patents have become very bad for the consumer and I would regard the system as even anti American.
 
It may well get painful. That's why we pay BIG money for our speakers. These 'ain't $500 Sonys.

Yep, I understand that, but let's put it in some different terms. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recal that you're involved in computer science for a living right? Let's say that you are running a business dedicated to creating cutting edge computer applications. One day an old customer calls and asks you to update an application you created for him 15 years ago. He wan'ts it to run perfectly in his environment, so you need to go back and update it in C++, or Fortran or something (I dunno, induldge me). Do you have Fortran? Can you go buy it? If you can, do you remember how to run it? Will it give your customer the very best product you know you are capable of delivering? Will you contine to support it? Will you support the next old customer that comes along asking for something similar, but in yet a different format?

Guys, the bottom line is that Martin Logan doesn't make any real money supporting legacy product. Many folks here bought their current speakers on the used market anyway. How much profit did Martin Logan make on those sales? Their profitability lies in the sale of new products, their vitality depends on it. Like it or not, if they aren't profitable it will become a moot point.

Now here's a thought. Given the recent thread Justin has been posting to concerning the refurbished Apogee's he's just brought home, I wonder if there isn't a market for some of those folks in Lawrance who will be displaced by this move to cater specifically to the market they are leaving. I wonder if ML couldn't license tooling and IP to those folks and allow them to build for the niche market we have here? Even so, do you think there is enough of a demand to allow those folks to make a living? If it were your money, would you sink it into that business?

I think the best way to influence Shoreline's direction with regard to Martin Logan is to actually become a shareholder, because it is they who are actually directing the show.
 
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the problem is they probably have patents on these items which means they can just put them to sleep if they want. patents have become very bad for the consumer and I would regard the system as even anti American.

Well that simply isn't true. Once a patent has expired it simply becomes public domain if the patent holder chooses not to maintain it.
 
Yep, I understand that, but let's put it in some different terms. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recal that you're involved in computer science for a living right? Let's say that you are running a business dedicated to creating cutting edge computer applications. One day an old customer calls and asks you to update an application you created for him 15 years ago. He wan'ts it to run perfectly in his environment, so you need to go back and update it in C++, or Fortran or something (I dunno, induldge me). Do you have Fortran? Can you go buy it? If you can, do you remember how to run it? Will it give your customer the very best product you know you are capable of delivering? Will you contine to support it? Will you support the next old customer that comes along asking for something similar, but in yet a different format?

Yes, I am in computer science.

Also, yes - I see your point, but I do think computers are a little different. Just a little. This is why Microsoft et al. all have their support road maps.

That said, I think it would be perfectly feasible to support an old program if you were charging accordingly (as ML does).

Where there is a requirement for computer programmes to be supported many years after writing, they most certainly are supported today.

Just look - for instance - at the navigation computers in aircraft. I've never seen so many old planes as I have when I've been to the US, but all those DC-9s, 727s and whatnot are absolutely updated to include the most recent navigation waypoints, ILS landing systems, etc. - even though their aeornautical systems are way behind what you'll find in the latest Airbus A380.

But of course, it costs a lot more money to maintain aeronautical software - more than what it does to produce operating systems or business software. Similarly ML charge more than mainstream audio brands.

The crux of the issue - I see - is that the panel is a consumable - the speaker is worthless without it and it has a limited life.

I would not be nearly as cut up if ML decided to stop supply of spares such as woofer screws, binding posts, timber rails, etc. But to stop supply of something consumable and vital as the panel is is simply condeming the speakers - all of them - to the rubbish pile within a very limited amount of time.

Oh, and one more thing ......... for the record, I hate IT, but alas, it pays the bills better than mowing lawns would!
 
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Ha-ha! Maybe we get a meeting going between you, Graz, me and Rich. I will have zero value to add to that illustrious group but I could be your guys groupie :D

Whilst this has some humour behind it, I'm sure, it may be prudent to state that Graz is a ribbons man, not an ESL panel man, for those who don't know. Not saying he couldn't do it given a bit of R&D & time, but I just thought I'd make the point for the sake of clarity.
 
Hello,
I just with Justin from ML would provide us with a list of Legacy Products for which Replacement Panels will no longer be available.

Of all of the things we have learned on this thread, this has been by far the most disconcerting. Given that the Panel is both a critical and consumable component, I never thought that replacements would ever be unobtainable.

The fact that Replacement Panels would always be available certainly went into the decision to purchase Martin Logans in the first place.

Again, all of my ML's are currently in production. However, I cannot imagine owners of Legacy Models that will no longer be able to replace their Panels will do? Do you sell now? Or save them for special occasions and no longer use them them as primary Speakers perhaps.

The idea of Replacement Panels not being available really will have an impact. I would guess that CLS Panels will remain to be available. Too iconic of a product. Not so sure about other Legacy Models.
Cheers,
ML
 
Tim, you make some good points. But I think Amey01 is right. Your points are more applicable to a lower end, mass producer than to a maker of an expensive high end niche product. My fear is that this change in policy is just a small part of MartinLogan's overall move toward becoming a more mainstream mass supplier of lower end audio components (think Bose, Klipsch, Polk, etc.) than an exclusive high end audio company.

If your points were really relevant to this business, I think ARC, CJ, Mac, Soundlab, Quad, Maggie, etc. etc., would have all come out with these policies limiting support of older models already. The fact that they persist in supporting all or most of their older products would strongly suggest otherwise.

For those members of this forum that have purchased higher end products from MartinLogan (meaning those costing from $2,000 to upwards of $20,000 a pair), ask yourselves these questions:

If, when you bought your first pair of Logans, you were told that your speaker had a limited life span (from ten to twenty years) and that the company making it would not necessarily support it when it died, how many of you would have plunked down the change for your Logans vs. exploring other brands?

If you looked on Audiogon and used values for the speakers from that company were a tenth of the retail cost after just a few years, would that impact your decision to buy them new at full retail cost?

How many of you, after purchasing your Logans, have since purchased numerous other models of Logans? Recommended them to friends? Would this policy have changed your mind on those choices?

Finally, for those that bought your speakers on the used market, would you have purchased those speakers for that kind of money if you knew it would be unlikely that you would be able to get replacement panels for that model?

My point here is that if used prices don't hold their value, people are going to be less likely to upgrade from an older to a newer model Logan. Right now, I can sell my Summits for half what I paid for them if I want to upgrade to CLX. If they were currently worth a tenth of their retail value instead of half, I certainly wouldn't be as likely to consider upgrading to the newer, more expensive model. And if used prices fall off a cliff, people are going to be unwilling to pay the huge retail markups for the new products.

These are the types of considerations that a company catering to the high end must take into consideration. They are not considerations for a company that focuses on selling mid-fi products to Best Buy customers. It seems pretty clear to me that MartinLogan is in the process of transforming themselves from the former into the latter.

All of that is fine enough if you're talking about some mom and pop shop catering to the needs of a nieche market, but that's not the type of organization we're talking about here. Martin Logan is indeed trying to compete at a much higher level.

Actually, I would say they are trying to compete at a much lower level. They are forsaking the high end market in an effort to compete in a very crowded and probably diminishing home theater market that has much lower margins. I will be very surprised if this is a successful strategy for them.

. . . but I also know that if ML doesn't have a diverse enough offering to serve as the foundation for the business they certainly won't be around long enough to sell us any kind of product, be it entry level Motion series home theater speakers or the CLX (and it's successors we hope). In these times it's all about generating revenue.

There are way too many successful companies at the high end for me to buy into this notion. You were at RMAF. You saw all the niche companies with great products that are surviving just fine in this economy, as well as many of the large, established ones. (Tellingly, MartinLogan was not among them). Will the economy weed some of them out? Sure. It always has. But well-known companies with established reputations seem to be doing just fine. I haven't heard any rumblings about ARC or Mac Or CJ or Wilson or Soundlab or Magnepan, etc. going out of business because they can't compete in this economy. I also don't see any of those brands at Best Buy.

It really isn't a question of whether they have to do this to survive. This is a calculated decision to meet strict gross sales and profit objectives set by a parent company that has no clue or care about the high end audio industry. The fact that their current CEO has absolutely no experience in the high end audio industry is a huge clue in that regard. Just about every successful HIGH END audio company I can think of is run by someone who has been in the business for decades. The decisions being made at MartinLogan these days seem to be in complete disregard for the nature of the high end audio business and their long term brand reputation in that industry. They seem to be focused on increasing sales and profits at the expense of everything else they have become known for over the last thirty years.
 
I am new to the community and martin logans in general, but I have already purchased like a dozen speakers, 5 of them being used market and the rest being lower end / non-esl for subs / surrounds. I would hate to see the panels being discontinued, that is for sure. If it starts to happen, ample notice would be appreciated. I know I would buy panels for my speakers whether I need them today or not. I understand the issues that legacy support creates and I understand the need to move on, but I'd definitely hate to see these speakers become garbage if production is just shut off one day.
 
Well that simply isn't true. Once a patent has expired it simply becomes public domain if the patent holder chooses not to maintain it.

what? these days they will issue you a patent for just about everything it's often how bigger companies with more money keep smaller ones down they go around patenting just about everything. Under current US law, the term of patent is 20 years from the earliest claimed filing date, plus patent term extension.I think that is way to long.
 
Rich and Matt,

In my heart I can agree with many of the things you say. After all I have owned 5 different sets of ML speakers (all ESL and 4 new). I love these speakers just as much as you and all of the people that regularly visit this site.

But heart and head are different. Tim's remarks explain very clearly how companies work and we need to understand that given this acquisition some support will be discontinued. I don't like it. I don't believe in waste either. But unless one of you guys or someone else buys the rights to the legacy products support may well stop. When? I haven't a clue.
 
Rich pointed out that since many of us bought used ML, the company made zero money from that sale. the logic continues to say that long lasting speaker (which can be resold many times) loses the company money.

perhaps. but there will always be a used speaker market. ask my ESL-57's

ML makes no money from a sale of used speakers. they DO make money selling replacement panels for speaker, including (perhaps even especially) panels for used speakers.

i suspect that people who have bought used logans are just as inclined if not MORE inclined to replace their panels. and that is money to ML that the used sale didn't make.
 
Hello,
Moreover, Speakers with high resale value speak well to the integrity and popularity of the Brand.

Already we have seen that the current ESL Series have not kept their value as well as earlier Models. Ascent i's are selling for around 2000 Dollars which is about what Vista's are selling for.

If Replacement Panels are no longer available for Models like the Ascent, resale really will be next to nothing. Again, the discontinuation of Replacement Panels for Legacy Models is by far the most important and shattering event of this entire Thread.
Cheers,
ML
 
Mark,

Value is often determined by the amount of product available.

It doesn't surprise me that a newer gen model may not bring as much on the used market as an older model. That's merely a current snapshot in time and may not prove to be true as time goes on.

An example at the pricey end of the spectrum is the CJ ART preamp or its current successor. CJ makes two hundred units and that's it. Assuming the product is of sufficient quality, the limited volume will ensure a high used value.

GG
 
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