Martin Logan food chain - is this correct?

[akm3]

I'm only comparing Vista through Summit X so it is what it is...
This is my understanding of the ML line, correct me if you think I got this wrong.

The Vista.

The Vantage is the Vista with a bigger woofer with it's own power for that woofer.

The Summit is a Vantage with a bigger panel, TWO woofers with it's own power and bling blue logo light.

The Spire is a Summit (sized panel) with only one woofer with it's own power, and a higher cross over point - but with new gadgetry from the CLX - and NO bling blue logo light.

The Summit X is a Summit with a lower crossover and the new gadgetry from the CLX, and bling logo light, bling under lights, and feet that can adjust rake.


it is clear that the Vantage is better than the Vista, and the Summit and Spire are better than the Vantage. The Summit X is better than the Summit and the Spire - and it is debatable if the Summit or Spire is better?

Did I sum that up in a properly simplified form?

I was originally prowling for used Summits, but it seems that since I plan to also get a Descent sub, the Spire might be the better purchase. Same sized panel, new whiz bang insides compared to the Summit. The Summit's better bass becomes irrelevant because of the additional sub. Both are similarly priced in the used market...I'm sure I'd be happy with either.

Did I miss anything?

/edit: I forgot, for a center channel, for ALL the above speakers, the Stage is the best choice?

 

[RichTeer]

Your summary is pretty much right, except the Spire also has the bling logo LED.

Yes, I'd say the Stage would be the best centre channel choice.

 

[Brian_74]

I think ML and most dealers recommend pairing the Motif with the Vantage or Vista. I think it's based on the size of room that these will work well in. Not that the Stage would be bad. Your room size might warrant it, but then you should probably have the Summit anyway!

 

[akm3]

Your summary is pretty much right, except the Spire also has the bling logo LED.

Yes, I'd say the Stage would be the best centre channel choice.

Oh damn, well that settles it right there! Spires it is! :music:

The center channel is a real conundrum for me. I see it's purpose, and especially with the narrow sweet spot want to be able to anchor the sound over several seats - but I hate. HATE when the sound pans across the front stage and it shrinks or changes in tone as it moves through the center speaker. I hate it. HATE it. HATE IT.

I would rather run a phantom center then deal with that...which saves me money!

So the question is, can the Stage with it's different physical size and dispersion and drivers actually meet the 'pan test'? I would assume it can't, but I've never heard one.

 

[Spike]

Whoa, not so fast...

On the surface, the ML pecking order is as you've described. But then there's an often overlooked issue of the crossover point between the woofer(s) and the panels:

1. Summit X: 270 Hz.
2. Spire: 320 Hz
3. Vantage: 400 Hz

Theoretically speaking, you'd want this crossover frequency to be as low as you can in order to prevent the "smearing" of the lower-midrange due to overlapping of the woofer and panels in this region. That's the main reason the CLS series sound so pure & magical!
But then again, this is just tech mumbo jumbo. How the speakers behave in your room as a whole is MUCH more important than any specs.

Spike

 

[akm3]

On the surface, the ML pecking order is as you've described. But then there's an often overlooked issue of the crossover point between the woofer(s) and the panels:

1. Summit X: 270 Hz.
2. Spire: 320 Hz
3. Vantage: 400 Hz

Theoretically speaking, you'd want this crossover frequency to be as low as you can in order to prevent the "smearing" of the lower-midrange due to overlapping of the woofer and panels in this region. That's the main reason the CLS series sound so pure & magical!
But then again, this is just tech mumbo jumbo. How the speakers behave in your room as a whole is MUCH more important than any specs.

Spike

Is this how JonFo is able to improve the sound by using 'active crossovers' where he can set the crossover points anywhere he wants?

Would you be cheating ML to take the Spire and 'Active Crossover' down to a 270 Crossover, just because you can?

What is involved with defeating Mr. Vojktokojj? (Sorry for my sarcasm, great guy...but it's a crossover network. ML Markets this like it is magic)

 

[roberto]

Is this how JonFo is able to improve the sound by using 'active crossovers' where he can set the crossover points anywhere he wants?

Would you be cheating ML to take the Spire and 'Active Crossover' down to a 270 Crossover, just because you can?

What is involved with defeating Mr. Vojktokojj? (Sorry for my sarcasm, great guy...but it's a crossover network. ML Markets this like it is magic)

Hola...just a little chime here...the best crossover is when there is no crossover at all...CLS and CLX are magical with this...happy listening,
Roberto.

 

[Ron]

The Summit has two 10 inch woofers. The Vantage has one 8 inch woofer.

 

[amey01]

1. Summit X: 270 Hz.
2. Spire: 320 Hz
3. Vantage: 400 Hz

Spike

I have never quite got why the Spire crossover is higher than the Summit/X. Anyone know? It's the same panel for fux sake!

 

[User211]

Has to be deliberate, I reckon, engineered in to make the more expensive model more attractive.

 

[akm3]

I have never quite got why the Spire crossover is higher than the Summit/X. Anyone know? It's the same panel for fux sake!

That is the crux of my question, ML might have that crossover arbitrarily set just to keep the Summit as the best sounding speaker. Defeating the crossover and manually putting it at 280, JonFo style, might give you some really, really good bang for your buck.

I don't know what is involved with defeating the crossover.

-Allen

 

[tonepub]

After spending time at the factory, and watching the level of research and care that goes on there, I'd be very surprised to find out those guys do anything arbitrarily...

That's one of the most buttoned down ships I've ever been to.

 

[slowGEEZR]

One thing to remember is that a higher crossover frequency means that the speaker may be a little more dynamic in nature, as more of the frequency range is covered by the cone speaker. This is why the Aerius sounds more dynamic than some of the other older models, even though it has a smaller panel. It's crossover frequency is pretty high, if I remember correctly. This may have to do with why the Spire crossover is at a higher frequency, so that it can compensate for having a smaller (and fewer) woofer than the Summit, yet still sound dynamic.

 

[User211]

And the Spire does sound very dynamic down below... at least it did in Bristol - more so than I remember the Summit doing. It kind of sounded like it was on steroids down below to me. But the ESL ethos is surely to get as much of the frequency spectrum covered as possible... hence the CLX.

 

[FISH_MAN]

you guys are really picking sh*t with the chickens on this one

 

[akm3]

you guys are really picking sh*t with the chickens on this one

I get accused of doing that a lot.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Spire equal or better than the Summit?

Sorry but I can't agree with that and it's not because I own the Summits.

The Summit has double the woofers and double the power for those drivers than the Spire.

Given the hardware differences between the two models, it's pretty obvious to me that the Summit will have better low end weight and produce the low end with less strain than the Spire, regardless of a panel crossover adjustment.

Summit X better than the Summit?

Maybe, maybe not.

No one, that I'm aware of and trust, has done that side by side comparison. And it may be, as some have suggested, that the modifications to the X will make it more room friendly (read exciting room resonances) where the speaker has to be placed close to a side / back wall. If this placement position is not an issue, there may be little performance difference between the two.

GG

 

[DrJRapp]

you guys are really picking sh*t with the chickens on this one

I agree.... a discussion of crossover points without the rest of the equation (ie: slope and cutoff) is essentially meaningless, especially since we are only talking about a difference of roughly 50 hz. 50Hz is a lot at 50Hz, but not so much in the 250-350 hz range.

 

[User211]

Spire equal or better than the Summit?

Did anyone say it was?

 

[User211]

I agree.... a discussion of crossover points without the rest of the equation (ie: slope and cutoff) is essentially meaningless, especially since we are only talking about a difference of roughly 50 hz. 50Hz is a lot at 50Hz, but not so much in the 250-350 hz range.

Yeah I thought that but didn't say it - just use a tone generator if you're not sure of the difference in real terms...