Looking for that new Processor....

[DTB300]

In a previous thread here, I asked about processor recommendations, and why they sounded better. Got a few replies, mostly just recomendations and no comparisons. So I have started to try to get out and audition some equipment. Wish I could afford something like the Meridian's or Theta's but they are just too much money, especially since most of my income is going toward college bills at this time. So something that sounds better than the Yamaha, and will hold me over for the next few years is my quest.

Background:
I was thinking about a new Processor as a replacement for my Yamaha RX-V1400. My primary concern is for music, specifically MCH SACD playback, but the family also watches movies in HT so I do need some video processing and digital input for DVD's. All my speakers are driven by external amplifiers, so Pre-outs are also a requirement. I do not use my Yamaha for ANY Music DAC work, basically using it for passthrough for the 5.1 channel analog signals from Sony Player to the Yamaha, then out the Pre Outs to dedicated amps. Oh yeah, BTW, I also have a HT passthrough on my ARC Pre, so the main channels come back to the ARC Pre for the mains.

Two Channel playback has its own equipment hence the Yamaha, or the Arcam will not be responsible for any two channel work.

Houston, we have a problem:
Went out to my local Stereo Store to see about a home audition so I can compare with my equipment in my room to see what differences there might be between the new Processor and the Yamaha. It was Saturday, and I know the store is closed on Sunday, so I figured I could pick up the unit, audition it Saturday night, Sunday, and bring it back Monday AM so there would be no inconviences to future customers. I arrived at the store and told the sales person about the desire to try out a new processor and was met with a reply:

"We do not allow home auditions of equipment" My immediate though was: **&@#%$!@# I was about to ask about this so-called policy, but the phone rang, he answered it, and I walked out the door. BTW, I have dealt with this store for YEARS now, not breaking the bank with purchases, but I have spent quite a few thousand $$$$ there.

Time to find good customer service and hopefully better treatment:
I then went home, looked up other authorized dealers, found another, called them up and they said: "Come on over we can discuss your needs and help you make a good decision". I then drove right over, discussed things, and a new processor will be waiting for me next Saturday to preview on Sat, Sun, & Mon to be returned on Tuesday.

My so called Local Store will no longer be getting ANY FUTURE business from me, nor will I EVER AGAIN, recommend them to any other audio friends - a very sad situation. For those in the Maryland/DC/VA area, you know what store I am talking about. I use to be a person who would tell people to give them a shot, but had heard about some horror stories about them from others - which I never had. Well, I am now in that Horror Story camp, and they have lost a customer and any future recommendations for other audio geeks to go.

I will report back on my findings after my audition.

Dan

 

[jtwrace]

I would call the manager and if still no service I would for sure send/call the manufacturer of the equipment you were looking at. These companies these days know that in home auditions is where it's at with all the competition so they want dealers to do in home auditions.

Sorry to hear about the bad experience but let us know what you find...

 

[aerius007]

If they wont let you take it home they should offer to make an appointment with you, bring it out to your house and let you audition for a couple of hours and then pick it up later on. At least they should offer to sit with you for an hour and go over the features and try to earn a sale.

 

[twich54]

Dan, Bummer with regards to your 'local audio salon', were you dealing with your regular sales guy ?? I had a somewhat similar experience with Overture after I purchased my Plinius and they couldn't understand why I didn't buy a Classe' amp from them instead. I then had to educate THEM that there are other excellent choices in products beyond what any one dealer carries !

 

[DTB300]

The store in question has had a recent high turn-over in staff. Three of the four staff have left. The last one remaining, is the person I usually look for when I go to the store, but he was not there yesterday. I expect him to call me on Monday, as the person who told me there is "no home auditions", left a message for him that I was there. Could be the sales rep there that day would not take the time for me, since the sale would ultimately go to the other person.

Not sure if I am going to take the time to talk to the manager of the store or not. I may just see if the sales person calls me tomorrow and let him know about the situation, and see what is said. Yesterday I was really ticked off, today I have calmed down a bit, so by Monday who knows.

But I plan on doing the audition from the other store, and if I like the unit, I plan on purchasing from them too. Customer Service is a lost art these days in the audio world - at least IMO - and when I do not get treated well, then my business will be taken somewhere else.

Dan

 

[eknuds01]

The store in question has had a recent high turn-over in staff. Three of the four staff have left. The last one remaining, is the person I usually look for when I go to the store, but he was not there yesterday. I expect him to call me on Monday, as the person who told me there is "no home auditions", left a message for him that I was there. Could be the sales rep there that day would not take the time for me, since the sale would ultimately go to the other person.

Not sure if I am going to take the time to talk to the manager of the store or not. I may just see if the sales person calls me tomorrow and let him know about the situation, and see what is said. Yesterday I was really ticked off, today I have calmed down a bit, so by Monday who knows.

But I plan on doing the audition from the other store, and if I like the unit, I plan on purchasing from them too. Customer Service is a lost art these days in the audio world - at least IMO - and when I do not get treated well, then my business will be taken somewhere else.

Dan

I hear ya, Dan. I, too, would like to see what your regular sales guy says. These days, if 'my guy' isn't there, I usually just turn around and walk out the door. That is too bad that they treated you this way. You'd think it would be common practice to let people borrow the floor model for a brief demo.

Erik

 

[lugano]

Dan, it's hard to sell ice to eskimos, and this guy probably sensed the danger.

You are too informed, to good and too trained to land a deal favorable to him.

People like us are a pain in the ash for audio sales personnel - we could teach them their job, we won't be fooled, we know more and better, what do you expect ?

 

[DTB300]

Dan, it's hard to sell ice to eskimos, and this guy probably sensed the danger.

Possibly, or my other take was he knows I talk with the other Rep all the time, and he did not want to take his time with me to help out.

I had an issue with this same store a couple of months ago in concerns to a cable purchase, but chalked it up to new people who did not know me. But this second time has really put a sour taste in my mouth, and I am not sure there is any candy (apologies, suck-up, etc.) to take that bad taste away.

I feel sorry for the guy I normally deal with as I enjoyed doing business with him. I hope he does call me on Monday so I can explain to him what happened so he knows why I will not be back.

You are too informed, to good and too trained to land a deal favorable to him. People like us are a pain in the ash for audio sales personnel - we could teach them their job, we won't be fooled, we know more and better, what do you expect ?

I would agree that us trained and experienced people just will not take a beating in regards to customer service. But I feel it is people like us who know exactly what we are looking for, the price we are looking to spend, making the time and effort less than for some of the uninformed. For instance the 2nd store I was in yesterday had a couple (husband and wife) in there for a demo and sales pitch that took over 2 hours, yet they did not make a purchase when they left - they were "thinking about it". I stopped in about an hour into the demo, and 15 mintues later, after discussing what the store thought was the best path, I then explained all my research and findings and how it matched up with theirs. We then discussed the acutal day for the audition - again after they agreed I had to hear it at home to make sure. The remaining time I spent with the sales person looking over the rest of the store talking about different components.

Dan

 

[kcl]

Not sure if I am going to take the time to talk to the manager of the store or not.

As the owner of a couple of businesses, I'd like to urge you to at least drop the manager a line. If it was my store, I'd certainly want to know if a long-time customer had been 'chased' away. How will he/she ever be able to make corrections if they don't know there's a problem? Consider it a courtesy for the past business, as well as giving the place a chance to become somewhere you could shop again in the future.

 

[ralflar]

Dan,

Arcam kit sounds great when it works. It can be quirky at times, though. I thought I should mention that. My DV137 has one bad habit related to - I think - 1080p over HDMI. Nothing serious, just quirky.

That would not stop me from buying other Arcam stuff, in fact the AVP700 is high on my own list. It should be really good for MC SACD.

You can save a bit by buying B-Stock from the US distributor for Arcam, Audiophile Systems. They have a silver AVP700 for 20% off, here:
http://www.audiophilesystems.com/audiophile/nearlyperfect.htm

B-Stock has full warranty and is sold through local dealers, just like new devices.

 

[DTB300]

Arcam kit sounds great when it works. It can be quirky at times, though. I thought I should mention that. My DV137 has one bad habit related to - I think - 1080p over HDMI. Nothing serious, just quirky.

Have read about some of the minor issues some units have, but have not seen too much written about the 700. There is a thread over at AVS about it, but again issues seem minor - but Arcam has ALWAYS taken care of it.

That would not stop me from buying other Arcam stuff, in fact the AVP700 is high on my own list. It should be really good for MC SACD.

For what I am looking for, and the way I want to use a Processor, the 700 seems to fit the bill. I do not want to use DAC's, Video is secondary - if I can see the picture being played, it works , MCH SACD is where I am looking for improvements over my Yamaha. We will see next weekend if the $2k purchase is worth it for the changes it may give me. I expect music videos to improve over the Yamaha, but I only have a few of them, and they are not a priority either.

You can save a bit by buying B-Stock from the US distributor for Arcam, Audiophile Systems. B-Stock has full warranty and is sold through local dealers, just like new devices.

Yep, seen the B-Stock list, and the dealer I am working with is going to check on B-Stock for me. I am going to call them Tuesday, closed today, and talk about the audition pickup time on Saturday, and have them check on the B-Stock and let me know a price for it. I see the price online, but you never know if the dealer will give me a futher break on the cost or not.

I could also buy used, but warranty does not transfer. With the audition from the dealer, I want to do everything possible to give them my business for their efforts and great customer service.

Dan

 

[asindc]

Dan,

I know of the store you speak of, having bought from them myself in the past. As you noted, the store has a mixed reputation with many people in this area, me included. It really seems to come down to who you talk to on a given day. I have been turned off by their general approach, however, and will only shop there now IF they offer something no one else has, or they make me an offer I can't refuse, so to speak.

As for shopping for the processor, if you can wait, I would recommend doing so. Since HT and MC audio are factors in your decision, the next few months should see some dramatic announcements from major manufacturers. HDMI, Dolby Digital Plus, and DTS-HD are on the horizon. Even if you are not concerned with these new formats, buying a new processor with them included makes the processor more future-proof. If you are interested in what is happening in the industry as far as adopting these new formats, check out the Q&A discussion with a Parasound rep on avsforum in the Amps and Receivers section.

 

[DTB300]

As for shopping for the processor, if you can wait, I would recommend doing so. Since HT and MC audio are factors in your decision, the next few months should see some dramatic announcements from major manufacturers. HDMI, Dolby Digital Plus, and DTS-HD are on the horizon. Even if you are not concerned with these new formats, buying a new processor with them included makes the processor more future-proof. If you are interested in what is happening in the industry as far as adopting these new formats, check out the Q&A discussion with a Parasound rep on avsforum in the Amps and Receivers section.

Been watching the HD, Blu-Ray, HDMI, Dolby, etc. but none of those formats concerns me now or in the near future.

I am not a big video nut as my DVD player and HD TV provide me with plenty of video enjoyment.

I do not have the room for a projector and screen either.

My player does not have HDMI for audio, so that is not an issue either.

And with a single 5 channel source, the single 5 channel input on the 700 is fine.

So all in all, if I like the improved sound the processor gives me, then I will more than likely go with it and enjoy my audio.

Dan

 

[ralflar]

I could also buy used, but warranty does not transfer.

Yes, I would not pass on that 5 year warranty either, especially since Arcam have such a good reputation re. after sales customer support.

With the audition from the dealer, I want to do everything possible to give them my business for their efforts and great customer service.

I wish more people would think straight like that! An uncle of mine had a nice TV/Mid-Fi shop in the 70s and 80s. Customers would come in to get advice and service. Once they knew what they needed/wanted, they went to the big electronics stores where they could save a few bucks. How indecent and short-sighted. This behavior was a major factor why my uncle (and many others like him) were driven out of business. Everybody loses.

So all in all, if I like the improved sound the processor gives me, then I will more than likely go with it and enjoy my audio.

Be sure to tell us how you like or dislike the AVP700 for your purpose before you inform the Arcam owners forum. I'd say so far you got better, certainly more, response here anyway.

 

[DTB300]

Be sure to tell us how you like or dislike the AVP700 for your purpose before you inform the Arcam owners forum. I'd say so far you got better, certainly more, response here anyway.

I will report back on the findings. Problem is that it is probably the only processor I will audition as it falls within the $$$ I have available - especially the B-Stock. All the other ones are too much $$$$, unless I buy used and even then.

I was surprised I did not get more of a response over at the Arcam Owners forum. I posted in one other forum about this, and the response here and the other place received a lot of responses. I think Arcam is only responding to technical and functional issues over there.

I even wrote to the NA Distributor and did not hear anything. Oh, BTW, the local store never called me back yesterday - am I not surprised???

Dan

 

[ralflar]

My guess is that you are simply disappointed because you were expecting better.

Audiophilesystems may need another day to respond; depending on what you wrote them your mail may not be so easy to answer. Even so, they should have acknowledged receipt of your message at least.

Regarding Arcam's presence on the Arcam Owners forum, Andy Dutton and John Dawson will reply to technical issues there. I have not ever seen them compare Arcam with other brands, or make other non-technical statements. That is fine IMO - English Fair Play - and that forum is not a board for Arcam support anyway. Arcam's occasional posts and Crusty's notifications of new firmware releases are what make that forum most useful to me.

 

[DTB300]

Arcam AVP700 vs Yamaha RX-V1400

Arcam AVP700 vs Yamaha RX-V1400

I currently use the Yamaha for my 5.1 SACD playback and HT Movie duties. I pre-out all channels from the Yamaha to dedicated amps for surrounds and center channel, and back to the HT pass-through on my ARC Pre amp to the main speakers.

Why the change, and the players involved:

While the Yamaha has performed flawlessly over the past couple of years, I have wondered what a dedicated processor would sound like in place of the Yamaha. I considered the following processors: Arcam, Aragon, Meridian, Lexicon, Cary, & Krell to name a few. They are priced from around $2k used up over $10k new, depending on the manufacturer and model. Current budget restraints from money-sucking college bound children limit me to the $2k-$3k range – hopefully closer to the lower end.

Main goals for a new processor:

The main goals for a processor replacement is improved Multi-Channel SACD playback, but I also need HT Movie ability (DTS, Dolby) for family movie night. With used equipment, all the companies mentioned can fit the bill for price, but the Meridian did not have the 5.1 analog-in that I needed, as I do not run a Meridian player for the proper connection. So unfortunately I had to rule out the Meridian units.

The Aragon Stage One was in the price range, but they use a DB25 – RCA connector for their MCH out, and I am a big cable person, and did not like the idea of this connector for my MCH output. So this was struck from my list.

The Lexicon processors are nice, but trying to find a MC-8 is very hard, and the MC-12 is just overkill for what I would like to have. So for now, I have struck the Lexicon from my list unless something pops up all of a sudden.

The items left were the Cary, Krell, and Arcam. I had a chance to listen to both the Krell Soundstage and the HTS, and the HTS was better sounding. And it should as the Soundstage is just a whittled down version of the HTS for those that cannot afford the HTS. While Krell certainly makes some very nice equipment, I was not sure if I could afford the better HTS 7.1 unit instead of the Soundstage. Getting to hear the Cary (Cinema 11) was difficult as I could not find anyone within a few hours driving distance to listen to it. Locally there were two Arcam dealers so I started there looking for the AVP700. As you may have already read, one dealer refused to loan me a unit to try at home, so “STRIKE THREE” they were out, and the other dealer was visited making arrangements for the audition.

Testing:

This past weekend, I just finished up comparing the AVP700 vs. the Yamaha RX-V1400 for MCH SACD music, which is basically pass-through, and also with movies and Concert DVD’s. All tests were done making sure all speaker settings and levels were matched between the two units. Volume levels of materials listened to were also level matched as close as possible along with no EQ-ing of speakers with the Yamaha or Bass/Treble settings on the Arcam.

I first did some extensive listening to the Yamaha with SACD, Movies, and Concert videos, taking notes along to way to use as a reference point when swapping over to the Arcam. I then switched over all the connections to the Arcam and went through the entire setup for level matching. During this time, cable management was also tackled to take care of the cable mess that had accumulated over time. All of this took almost 45 minutes to accomplish, greatly hindering accurate comparisons between what I just heard from the Yamaha to what I would hear from the Arcam. When I first played the Arcam, music sounded good, movies sounded good, and so did the concert videos. But was it THAT MUCH better than the Yamaha??? In other words was it $2k+ better??? Hard to say, so I just sat there and listened to the Arcam for the rest of the night and most of the next day.

On the next day, I got a game plan together for moving the connections from the Arcam to the Yamaha as quickly as possible, but without putting any components at risk. This time, I was able to do the swap in less than 5 minutes. Still, not optimum for comparison testing, but it was much better than 45 minutes.

Conclusion:

The Yamaha:

What I will describe is not what I had thought I had heard with the Yamaha. Over time, I had become accustomed to its sound, and never had anything else to compare it to. I was quite surprised at the results.

The Yamaha was bright (too much or accentuated high end) and edgy sounding in the high end - the sound was anything but smooth. I never realized it was affecting the music like this, as I had become accustomed to the sound signature over time. I also never had listened to the MCH Classical selection in Stereo, so there was no comparison ever made there either. For the bass, while there, it was almost laid back from the rest of the music. Could this have been due to the high end over-powering the rest of the music, or was the low end lacking detail or authority?

Again, I cannot stress the surprise I had when I went back from the Arcam to the Yamaha and the sound I was hearing. I guess it goes to show you that over time one’s ears get burned-in and used to a certain sound. I am glad I have finally done a comparison to see what I was really missing by using this main stream receiver.

It was now time to swap back from the Yamaha to the Arcam processor so again, I went through the 5 minute dance of getting things hooked up.

The Arcam:

In comparison, the Arcam produced a high end that initially "appears" to be laid back compared to the Yamaha. But after listening to the Arcam then switching back to the Yamaha and then back, the Arcam was producing the high end more accurately and not accentuating it. Next, the detail between instruments was better with the Arcam enabling me to hear things in the music that I had not heard before. Lastly, the bass of the Arcam with MCH SACD well defined but never overpowering the rest of the music. The overall balance with the Arcam was superior to the Yamaha.

NOTE: I checked the firmware on the Arcam and found it was at 3.20, with the latest firmware at 3.44. I will inform the dealer about the lower code in the unit when I return it.

To see how much the Arcam may be affecting the sound, I also did a comparison of my 2 channel playback (ARC/Plinius/ML), compared to the 2 channels on the Arcam and Yamaha pass-through, back to the ARC HT pass-through and then to the main system. I found that the sound from the Arcam was far superior when doing the same test through the Yamaha. The Yamaha time and time again in all my testing did not sound as good as the Arcam. While the straight 2 channel playback was superior to both units, the Arcam proved to be a valiant competitor.

HT Movies:

We have been using the Yamaha for movie playback both for DTS and Dolby movies along with a few concert videos. Let me state that video is not a big thing with me. If I put in a DVD and it plays and I can see the video, I am happy. I have seen both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD and while the picture is a great improvement, I am going to wait out the wars for now. Within the past year we have purchased a new TV, a Sony 34XBR960 HD Widescreen SFP set. It had the best picture of all the tube TV’s out there, and fit the budget very well. For video I use an Oppo player, and for now I use component video (RGB) connections to the TV, as my HD Fios uses the current HDMI input on my TV. (A HDMI switch or a processor with HDMI is in the future to be able to use the HDMI on the Oppo)

As before, we did not realize what we had been missing with the Yamaha for movies. When I switched over to the Arcam, both the DTS and Dolby playback was a great improvement over the Yamaha. As we sat there and watch some of the same chapters, we started to hear things in the surround sound track of the movie which we did not hear before. It was: “did you just hear that”, or “what was that””? The Arcam gave us more of the surround experience over the Yamaha.

For video playback, the picture improved on the Arcam over the Yamaha. Everything just seemed to be clearer and more defined. Not being a big video nut, I was surprised at the change I saw with the Arcam. This was a part of the processor which I was not concerned about, but was pleasantly surprised to get.

What did I find out about MCH pass-through:

In the end a main stream receiver will affect the sound quality of the music either when using its amplification, or just in pass-through. I was doubtful of the affect on pass-through myself, as no one else had ever posted doing a test like this. So when I did my evaluation this weekend, I was pleasantly surprised at the improvement in sound quality obtained with the Arcam and amazed at the affect the Yamaha had on the sound.

I need to return the Arcam back to the dealer, and decide on purchasing it, or possibly looking at another company. For now, I highly recommend auditioning the Arcam AVP700 for those looking for a dedicated process (no amplification) in the lower price range of the available processors out there. If music is your number one priority, then the Arcam should be on your list of items to review.

 

[Rich]

The Yamaha was bright (too much or accentuated high end) and edgy sounding in the high end - the sound was anything but smooth.

This is exactly my experience with my Yamaha multichannel receiver. When I had it hooked up to Definitive Technology speakers, it wasn't as big of an issue. But as soon as I hooked it up to my Logans, it was unbearable. That was when I upgraded to tube electronics. I have since hooked my Yammy back up to burn in my stage and clarities and it is just unlistenable for music. Way too bright and edgy.

By the way, great review. Very well-written and informative. I hope you are able to find the Cary to audition, because I would be interested in your findings. I am still debating between Meridian or Theta vs. Anthem or Sunfire, with the Cary and Arcam pieces in the mix as well.

 

[asindc]

Dan and Rich,

I've had a recent similar experience, not with receiver vs. separates, but receiver vs. receiver... within the same brand!

I had been running a Pioneer Elite 49TXi HT receiver, their former flagship, with a Sunfire Cinema Grand 5 amp. Before I added the amp, I thought I had really good sound for music as well as movies. Well, adding the amp gave me more than a glimpse of what I've been missing!

Then recently, I had to put the 49TXi in the shop to repair the left side surround channel. With a 3-month turnaround looming, I bought the Pio Elite 74TXvi to hold me over. Well, despite the fact that the 74 is considered a newer little brother of the 49 (the 74 has HDMI inputs, while the 49 does not), the 74 sounds significantly better as a music preamp than the 49. The 49 is more robust, but the 74 beats it in every other way. So I've sold the 49 and kept the 74.

I attribute the difference in sound to the improved DACs in the 74. It is one of the reasons I'm looking forward to the HT receivers releases this year. It is also why I want to audition a high-end preamp in my system. Dan, as you know from other threads I've posted recently, I am also trying to figure how I will keep the very dynamic (but bright) sound of an HT receiver, and add the smoother more refined sound of an audio-centered preamp. A higher-end HT preamp would obviously combine the best of both, but those that do tend to be quite expensive, as Dan has observed.

Thanks for your helpful observations, Dan. Now I am more interested in at least trying a high-end HT preamp in my system before deciding on an HT receiver.

Anthony

 

[DTB300]

I attribute the difference in sound to the improved DACs in the 74.

Remember in my testing, I never used the DAC's for Music in the Arcam or the Yamaha, just the 5 ch analog in and pre-outs for the 5 channels.

But as you have done with dedicated amps outside the receiver is a step in the right direction, you just need to take that additional step as I did over the weekend. I will probably end up buying the Arcam to get the improved sound for the $$$ I have available. The Krell HTS 7.1 and the Meridian G61, the other two I considered as a solution, are just too expensive at this time.

It is one of the reasons I'm looking forward to the HT receivers releases this year. It is also why I want to audition a high-end preamp in my system. Dan, as you know from other threads I've posted recently, I am also trying to figure how I will keep the very dynamic (but bright) sound of an HT receiver, and add the smoother more refined sound of an audio-centered preamp. A higher-end HT preamp would obviously combine the best of both, but those that do tend to be quite expensive, as Dan has observed.

Thanks for your helpful observations, Dan. Now I am more interested in at least trying a high-end HT preamp in my system before deciding on an HT receiver.

With the ARC as the main 2 ch pre amp, and it having the HT pass-through, I can sort of have my cake and eat it too. Watch the used arena for the ARC's, Cary, etc. as they seem to pop up often for a steal. For the price the Arcam is a very nice sounding unit - again I cannot comment on using the DAC's in the unit for music CD as I never tried it. But for movies and MCH pass-through, it was very nice sounding for the price.

Dan