Its a Love Affair!!

[CJBryan]

Between me and my Ascents: There always so happy in the morning to give what ever I ask and look so sad as I announce that I have to go to work now. As I arrive home from work they are always soooo exited to see me with their cute little biwire tails wagging a mile a minute.
They do occasionally fight, with the left one almost always wanting to play some Trent Reznor or Marilyn Manson and the right one always leaning toward some variation of 60’s Brazilian Bossa. Regardless, with the proper play list, we always seem to work it out. A quick kiss good night and their little orange eyes go to sleep eager to get their needed rest for tomorrow.
So it’s with a heavy heart that I announce that my Ascents have been silent for almost two weeks now due to a needed receiver repair. Yes I said receiver, a Denon AVR 5800 to be exact. HOW CAN HE LOVE HIS ASCENTS !! You may scream and to that I’ll say that it was the best I could do with the monetary constraints of that time. All in all, it has been quite a work horse with a 4ohm rating of 310watts for the boys. Truth be told, it’s on a service bench with a video issue and has never given me any issues regardless of how I pushed.
The silver lining in my present cloud is the fact that my wife is going nuts in the silence. I have effectively coaxed her into the four legged pair of pants that we have in our house and have the green light for an upgrade. I know, I know…. Please not another I need an amp thread. I have spent countless hours scouring post and suggestions and think I have it narrowed down. I need an entry level amp that won’t break the bank. It looks as if the Outlaw or Sunfire products would be the best for my needs with a heavy lean towards the Sunfire TGA 7400.
My confusion comes in the form of a conversation I was having with a local dealer who informed me that the Denon I own is a reasonably high end piece of gear and that I would have to move into the 6k and up range to really see any noticeable difference in listening quality. Naturally he is trying to sell me something. So my question is, is this true? All things remaining the same, if I install the TGA 7400, am I going to have to strain to hear a difference other than achievable volumes?
Sorry for the long post,
Thank You,
Chris

 

[akm3]

I thought sunfire stuff was really expensive, are you talking used or do they have reasonably priced products now?

How much are the equivalents of the old 300x2 and 200x5 and 200x7 amps these days? I know they don't have the cool Joule meter anymore though -- that was the best part!!

-Allen

 

[CJBryan]

I thought this was a fair price for the 7400
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1183184251

 

[Rich]

Chris,

Any reason you need seven channels of amplification? Do you have other speakers for a surround system? Are you planning on bi-amping your Ascents using four of the channels on this amp? Unless you have a need for that many channels or were planning on bi-amping, I would recommend the Sunfire 5400 with five channels at 400 wpc. This would give you more headroom. If five channels is enough but you only want 200 wpc, there is one of these on Audiogon right now for $1700. There are also a couple of 7400 on there right now for almost double that.

I think that you can't go wrong with Outlaw or Sunfire for Logans. They both match really well. I can't say how much of an upgrade they would be because I'm not really that familiar with the Denon gear. But I have to say I have never really considered Denon gear "high end."

I think you will notice a considerable improvement just going from an integrated receiver to separate preamp and amps. Of course, this will depend in part on what preamp you choose and how it synergizes with the amp. You don't mention preamps in your post, only amps. Have you thought about what preamp you would mate with this amp?

It is kind of hard to give you advice until you tell us more what you are trying to accomplish and what your budget is. If you are trying to get a decent preamp / surround sound processor and a seven channel amp and if you are planning on buying new rather than used, you may have a hard time getting it done for less than $5,000 or $6,000. But if you are just looking for another integrated receiver and are willing to buy used, you may get something really good for $2,000 to $3,000. I really don't recommend an integrated receiver though. Separate Preamp and amps is the way to go.

 

[CJBryan]

Thanks Rich,
I presently am running a 5.1 system and was hoping to upgrade to a 7.1 in the future. In addition to the Ascents I run a Theater, Scripts and a 10" Velodine sub. I would consider bi-amping the fronts but the 7400 seems a little excessive for watts to the front to me. I really do not know if thats the case. There seems to be a lot of people on here pushing a lot of power to their fronts. I was hoping to stay around 3 to 3500 in cost with the thought that I would use my Denon as a pre for now and look to get a new pre down the road. Am I risking anything with that thinking?

 

[akm3]

I thought this was a fair price for the 7400
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1183184251

Yea, that is a fair price. I just thought since you were comparing to the outlaw that they were similarly priced.

-Allen

 

[kcl]

As Rich said, you probably cannot go wrong with a Sunfire amp for your Ascents. I had Ascents for 4+ years and just loved them. I just recently upgraded to Summits and, after much research, decided to go with the Sunfire TGA-7400. I'm *very* happy with it. It not only easily drives the full load range of MLs (from 8 ohms down to 1-2 ohms), but is has an additional CURRENT output for the left and right channels. Sunfire claims that this has the direct current characteristics that are equivalent to the desired results you get from tube amps.

As for the $3150 price for the opened box 7400, that's a pretty good price. If you do some net searching you can find one brand new from an authorized dealer for something in the 20% to 23% discount, which is about the $3400 range. (That's what I paid for mine a few months ago.) So that price for an opened box seems fine.

 

[twich54]

There seems to be a lot of people on here pushing a lot of power to their fronts. I was hoping to stay around 3 to 3500 in cost with the thought that I would use my Denon as a pre for now and look to get a new pre down the road. Am I risking anything with that thinking?

CJ, Hello and welcome ! With respect to the 'power thing' , the general idea is ( as Roberto likes to say) "quality power". Which means clean, stable, current delivering amplification. The implied synergy with the rest of your equipment, room acoustics, and listening tastes all come into play.

Your Denon reciever is a well praised piece, so using it as a 'pre' with an amp of your choosing would make sense, thus allowing you to put a few extra $$ into a quality amp. Beyond that point you have a multitude of possibilities !

Good luck !

 

[CJBryan]

Thanks Dave,
Thats what I was hoping to hear. I just wanted to be sure that I wasnt completely out of my mind with my upgrade a little now and a little later mentality. My fronts have been through two upgrades and my center has been through one. It's come a long way from my tv as my center and my wifes old kenwoods as my rears.

Thank You,
Chris

 

[Rich]

CJ, It sounds like you are building a solid system. I think given where you are at and where you want to go, using the Denon as a pre and upgrading the amplification for now is a smart choice. I think you will notice a substantial improvement going to new amplification now, and even more improvement when you upgrade the pre later.

I would strongly recommend you consider the 7400 and bi-amp the Ascents and use the other three outputs for your Theater and Scripts. Then, if you find you don't need that much power on the fronts, you can upgrade to a 7.1 system later and still have plenty of power to run the Ascents.

When I added 200 wpc Outlaw monoblocs to run the woofers of my Ascents (using my Conrad Johnson 160 wpc tube amp to just run the panels) it gave me a huge leap forward in sound quality. Not just better bass, but better sound top to bottom. The Ascents do well with lots of power. I'm not saying they need 400 wpc top and bottom, I'm just saying a little headroom is not a bad thing, especially for complex music or the dynamic transients of movie soundtracks.

However, I am sure you could get by nicely with a 7200, biamping the Ascents with 200 wpc top and bottom. My only concern there is with the center channel. In a movie situation, maybe 70% of the sound information is going to the center channel and a mere 200 wpc driving the Theater may not cut it for the kinds of dynamic transients you get in movies these days. It just may not sound as good as 400 wpc driving the same speaker. Also, if you do go to a 7.1 system, using only 200 wpc to drive the full load of the Ascents is not, in my opinion, going to allow that speaker to perform to its full capabilities.

Just my 2 cents. Please take it for what it is worth.

 

[CJBryan]

Just my 2 cents. Please take it for what it is worth.

I'll take it for the quality direction that I am looking for!! As luck would have it, both 7400's on Audiogo are gone. I'll keep looking around and am going to try and get a demo in this weekend if I can find anyone who has them out.
Thanks Again,
Chris

 

[Pcar928fan]

However, I am sure you could get by nicely with a 7200, biamping the Ascents with 200 wpc top and bottom. My only concern there is with the center channel. In a movie situation, maybe 70% of the sound information is going to the center channel and a mere 200 wpc driving the Theater may not cut it for the kinds of dynamic transients you get in movies these days. It just may not sound as good as 400 wpc driving the same speaker. Also, if you do go to a 7.1 system, using only 200 wpc to drive the full load of the Ascents is not, in my opinion, going to allow that speaker to perform to its full capabilities.

225 Watts seems good enough for my Theater... I use Rotel RMB1095 for that and the 4 surrounds (that is into 8 ohms), I use an RB1090 at 380 wpc (8 ohms, 700 wpc into 4) for my Prodigy fronts... They all seem well balanced and I get good center channel resolution as compared to the Prodigy and surrounds...YMMV!

 

[theWB]

I would strongly recommend you consider the 7400 and bi-amp the Ascents and use the other three outputs for your Theater and Scripts. Then, if you find you don't need that much power on the fronts, you can upgrade to a 7.1 system later and still have plenty of power to run the Ascents.

Chris,
:welcome: Good to see another Chicago area MLC member.
In agreement with Rich here. I would Bi-Amp the fronts using a 7.1 amp in a 5.1 setup. 99% of all movies are 5.1 with the rare occasion of a 6.1 and all SACD'S, DVDA'S, and DTS recordings I've come across are all 5.1. As someone who has a 5.1 system with a 5.1 amp, my one regret is not picking up a 7.1 amp and Bi-Amping my fronts.My amp is rated at 200 watts per channel into 8 Ohms. I've been quite happy with the 5.1 setup with no problems, I only wish I had the extra power when 2 channel listening.

225 Watts seems good enough for my Theater... I

Agree with James as well my B&K amp at 200 per channel seems to drive my Theater just fine.:music:

 

[Rich]

Judging by the other responses, I would say the consensus is that you would be very happy with a 7 channel 200 wpc amp from Sunfire and biamping your ascents with the extra two channels. Now the trick is finding one. Honestly, I have been watching audiogon lately and have seen a lot more of the 7400 amps come up for sale. And I still stand by my proposition that the 7400 would work well for your situation. Either way, I wish you luck in finding that amp of your dreams.

 

[CJBryan]

Chris,
:welcome: Good to see another Chicago area MLC member.
:

Thank You!! I have been lurking for about 6 months and very impressed with the systems you have all put together. Great room by the way and the comment on 7.1 content is so true. I have had a 7.1 system available to me for five years now and never found a reason to hook it up due to lack of content.

Thanks to all for taking the time. Great suggestions!! I will be on the hunt for a TGA 7400 and look to bi-amp the fronts. It seems that the 7400 is made for that setup. It’s more power than I have ever had and from what I have read it seems to be the clean variety. I am very interested to see what the boys have to say after they are hooked up. Once acquired, I am sure I'll post back with questions.
Thank you,
Chris