I was wrong, you guys were right....

[Joey_V]

I became a member of this crazy forum towards the latter part of 2005. Since then, I've started from Mosaics and gone through the Vantage and then later the Summits. I started with an HK receiver and slowly moved through low end Rotels, then to the Rotel RB1090 beast of an amp, but ultimately culminated into the Plinius SA102 that many here revere and love. In addition, I started with no preamp but my soundcard, then to the Rotel RC1070 preamp, then through the entire line of Rogue preamps (Metis, Perseus, 99), before finally settling with the Cary 98 and now the Cary SLP-05 preamp.

Then there's been the question of source.... I've always let this aspect of my system run dry and I've always procrastinated with regards to it. I always moved up the rest of my system but never the source.

It took months of coaxing and pushing from members of this forum before I finally got rid of the soundcard as my source and moved up to the stock DACs of the Squeezebox3. After much prodding, I eventually moved up to the PS Audio DACIII.

Why am I telling you guys this and why am I posting this?

Because for so long I've been after added vocal weight, a better image, a sharper focus to the music, and a better sense of realism. I always got a bit of this every time I upgrade either the preamp or the amp... and I kept pushing onward with those 2.

Little did I know that the culprit had been that my system was unbalanced! My source had always been lagging and the downstream components could not resolve what was not there in the first place!

I recall many threads where I either:
1. Questioned the ability of electrostats to image as well as conventional dynamic cone speakers.
2. Questioned whether I needed more tubes in the system, even in the form of a tube buffer between the source and the preamp!
3. Question whether or not a non-focused image is the "truer" way of imaging from a loudspeaker and perhaps this was more natural than the portrayal of imaging via dynamic speakers!

Boy I was getting deluded....

Little did I know that all I had to do was upgrade the source to the same level as the downstream components... and that this move would push the entire system up a whole notch. And that I have finally reached near sonic nirvana.

Can it be improved still? Of course. But now, it stands to be the best I have ever heard my system sound.

I went through 2 hours of listening tonight, to the point where I became woozy. I listened through the entire JUNO OST cd (19 tracks) twice! And also added some usual favorites to tonight's playlist!

So, in closing... you guys were right. All of you who advocated that I begin to examine my source were all right! I was wrong... thank goodness for this forum and for the lessons I learn each time.

Thanks fellas...

Joey

 

[Bernard]

Joey, do you think you would have reached sonic nirvana earlier if you had upgraded the source first, but with your older amplification components? I am stirring the pot here as my question goes back to the recent thread about which component is more important. :devil:

Just looking for an opinion here; nothing is for sure.

 

[C.A.P]

I agree with that assumption. I do think the Cary in alll areas has helped. Although I did love my Theta Miles . When I went to the Krell KPS25s ,it was night and day ! The magic I had been searching for appeared . I think its a synergy thing too.

 

[David Matz]

I became a member of this crazy forum towards the latter part of 2005. Since then, I've started from Mosaics and gone through the Vantage and then later the Summits. I started with an HK receiver and slowly moved through low end Rotels, then to the Rotel RB1090 beast of an amp, but ultimately culminated into the Plinius SA102 that many here revere and love. In addition, I started with no preamp but my soundcard, then to the Rotel RC1070 preamp, then through the entire line of Rogue preamps (Metis, Perseus, 99), before finally settling with the Cary 98 and now the Cary SLP-05 preamp.

Then there's been the question of source.... I've always let this aspect of my system run dry and I've always procrastinated with regards to it. I always moved up the rest of my system but never the source.

It took months of coaxing and pushing from members of this forum before I finally got rid of the soundcard as my source and moved up to the stock DACs of the Squeezebox3. After much prodding, I eventually moved up to the PS Audio DACIII.

Why am I telling you guys this and why am I posting this?

Because for so long I've been after added vocal weight, a better image, a sharper focus to the music, and a better sense of realism. I always got a bit of this every time I upgrade either the preamp or the amp... and I kept pushing onward with those 2.

Little did I know that the culprit had been that my system was unbalanced! My source had always been lagging and the downstream components could not resolve what was not there in the first place!

I recall many threads where I either:
1. Questioned the ability of electrostats to image as well as conventional dynamic cone speakers.
2. Questioned whether I needed more tubes in the system, even in the form of a tube buffer between the source and the preamp!
3. Question whether or not a non-focused image is the "truer" way of imaging from a loudspeaker and perhaps this was more natural than the portrayal of imaging via dynamic speakers!

Boy I was getting deluded....

Little did I know that all I had to do was upgrade the source to the same level as the downstream components... and that this move would push the entire system up a whole notch. And that I have finally reached near sonic nirvana.

Can it be improved still? Of course. But now, it stands to be the best I have ever heard my system sound.

I went through 2 hours of listening tonight, to the point where I became woozy. I listened through the entire JUNO OST cd (19 tracks) twice! And also added some usual favorites to tonight's playlist!

So, in closing... you guys were right. All of you who advocated that I begin to examine my source were all right! I was wrong... thank goodness for this forum and for the lessons I learn each time.

Thanks fellas...

Joey

Joey,

I will be happy to bring the Ayre by your place any time for some serious SACD auditioning. Burke and I put a dream system together combining his amps and Summits and my source and pre-amp in a well treated room a few weeks ago, and it was purely amazing.

 

[Joey_V]

Joey, do you think you would have reached sonic nirvana earlier if you had upgraded the source first, but with your older amplification components? I am stirring the pot here as my question goes back to the recent thread about which component is more important. :devil:

Just looking for an opinion here; nothing is for sure.

VERY difficult to say exactly what would've happened if I started from the source and moved up on downwards. Keep in mind, even if the Cary 306/200 is plugged into the system AND I remove the Plinius from Class A and switch it to Class AB, the sound suffers.... the Cary 306/200 alone is not what has caused his near nirvana experience - it is the entire system as a whole from the source to the amp (and speakers of course).

I don't know which way is best to go about upgrades - all I know is that all have to upgraded to a good level at some point in time. The way I did it was to set the base with the best speakers I could afford. Then slowly move up from amps/preamps, then lastly to the source.

If I had done source then amp/preamps, I think I would've arrived at the exact same time as I have right now...

... if that makes any sense.

I agree with that assumption. I do think the Cary in alll areas has helped. Although I did love my Theta Miles . When I went to the Krell KPS25s ,it was night and day ! The magic I had been searching for appeared . I think its a synergy thing too.

I'm sure synergy has some play into this, but what I'm trying to get at is the fact that it is important NOT to neglect any one part of the system. The components function as a cohesive group and if one part is lacking - the whole system suffers.

Joey,

I will be happy to bring the Ayre by your place any time for some serious SACD auditioning. Burke and I put a dream system together combining his amps and Summits and my source and pre-amp in a well treated room a few weeks ago, and it was purely amazing.

David,

As you know, I love the Ayre gear... heard the 5xe and was smitten ever since. Took out the top end Classe from my recollection in the BW802D system.

As much as that is fun, I must lay off for a little while. Sometimes, ignorance is bliss. I have something else I'm saving up for now and I can't have another audio component suck that dry.... .

BUT, nonetheless, once I get my system set up at the new place (2 days and counting), I would love to have you over to hear it/hang out.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi guys and gals,

In a way, building a satisfying audio system resembles the proverbial "chicken and egg" argument.

One thing I believe, that Rich and others have stated, is to buy the best speaker that you can afford since that is the hardware at the end of the road.

Given my recent experience with purchasing the 306SACD, I can certainly relate to Joey's observations.

Trying to objectively quantify what each piece of the puzzle contributes to the final sound of a system is difficult at best. System synergy is certainly a dynamic aspect. Could Joey hear what the Cary brought to the table without the other components / upgrades he made to his system? Probably not.

Then there's the issue of "educating" your ears so one is able to hear / appreciate the nuances that each improvement brings to the overall sound of the system.

A couple of weeks ago, I really thought that I had my setup performing at a very satisfying level. Then, I purchased a new / silver based IC. I installed it two days ago.

It is obvious that I would never have been able to hear the additional contribution (very audible and quite shocking for the price) that this IC brought to the system performance without all the other "pieces" in place.

It just seems the journey never ends. What a great hobby we have.

GG

 

[amey01]

System synergy is certainly a dynamic aspect.
GG

It certainly is a dynamic aspect.

And the problem is, (well, because of this), we are all on our little roads and we may never see (hear) what may have happened if we had done just one small thing differently.

Case in point - if you pick CDP "A" because it sounds better in your system than CDP "B" - this is because of system synergy, and your setup at the time. But what if CDP "B" is actually better, and would have given better sound had only one component (such as the preamp) been different in your system at the time of choice?

Intersting thought.

One thing's for sure in audio - it really is never-ending!

 

[Joey_V]

It just seems the journey never ends. What a great hobby we have.

GG

GG-

What a wonderful way of putting it... absolutely 100% correct, this is a phenomenal hobby. Just this week, I actually started buying CDs - I am now at a total of 8 new CDs... yes Mr. FLAC himself! That's a lot for a guy who's entire collection probably amounts to less than the number of fingers on one hand.

BTW, which IC did you get?

 

[DrJRapp]

if you pick CDP "A" because it sounds better in your system than CDP "B" - this is because of system synergy, and your setup at the time. But what if CDP "B" is actually better, and would have given better sound had only one component (such as the preamp) been different

That is exactly the reason we call it a system of components rather than a collection. There is really no such thing as "system synergy". If we change one part we have changed the whole, either for better or for worse ....in our own opinion.

Definition of System:

1. a combination of related parts organized into a complex whole

 

[jfm]

Joey,

I don't see your VPI rig in your system description? What happened with that experiment?

 

[amey01]

That is exactly the reson we call it a system of components rather than a collection. There is really no such thing as "system synergy". If we change one part we have changed the whole, either for better or for worse ....in our own opinion.

Yes. The funny thing I find though, is that if I had chosen (for example) something other than that Musical Fidelity A2 Integrated amp back in 1997 (and long gone from my system), I might be at a completely different point with my system here today. Scary, isn't it?

We're all on our own little paths, but we have very little perception of what the other ones are like!

Statistically, I wonder what the chances are of any two of our members' systems being the same?
Anyone??

 

[risabet]

Joey, do you think you would have reached sonic nirvana earlier if you had upgraded the source first, but with your older amplification components? I am stirring the pot here as my question goes back to the recent thread about which component is more important. :devil:

Just looking for an opinion here; nothing is for sure.

Probably not, what he would have had happen is that each future upgrade would lead to MORE AUDIBLE REVELATIONS OF THE SOURCE. In other words, each upgrade allows the source, and thus the music to be maximally revealed, given the limitations of the ancillary gear. As the other components, including the speakers were upgraded, more of the gravitas of the music would be revealed, whereas having upgraded to great speakers, all that happened is hearing the flaws of the source and not getting closer to the essence of the music. Source first!

 

[Joey_V]

Statistically, I wonder what the chances are of any two of our members' systems being the same?
Anyone??

If you look at it, several of us have similar systems. Someone here has the Cary SLP-05 with the Plinius 102. I don't recall his source though.

Also, if you look at Dave (twich), our systems are similar to an extent. Although he uses a different model Cary CDP, a Vantage instead of Summit, and a different brand tube amp - we have an overall similar feel of a system.

I think the reason for this is due to the contact we all get from the internet and this forum. Had it not been for this forum, I would've never heard of Plinius, tube preamps, etc.... and my system would be completely different (and probably inferior).

 

[Bernard]

Hey Joey, how's the new apartment ?

 

[Joey_V]

Hey Joey, how's the new apartment ?

Moving sucks.... so tired. No internet....

 

[Pcar928fan]

Joey,

Where are you ending up? What residency program are you going to??? I never heard...I must have missed the memo.

 

[Joey_V]

Joey,

Where are you ending up? What residency program are you going to??? I never heard...I must have missed the memo.

Ended up in Chicago! Going to Cook County Hospital for ER... same hospital as on the show ER.... not bad! Because you no longer check the site like you used to, you missed the memo, my friend!