Heard a KILLER new Electrostat - JansZen!!!!!!!!!

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The thread on the apogee forum has come alive. Thanks again, Justin. If you are not stirring up the pot, you sure know someone that does! :D

So Mr. Aranyi did admit that his ears are ultra sensitive to digital. The strange thing, to me, is that he preferred the ipod to my Ayre. By all accounts, the Ayre is damn good. The Ayre was the player that created the Class A+ category in Stereophile, or whatever those clowns call it. It is definitely not as forward as some of the Ayre electronics. (By the way, Brian, I would love to do a shootout between the Ayre and your A??? cd player. Maybe we can do a get together at your house with some chicago ml club members.)

Nothing wrong with his comments. As I said above, this is a hobby and we all have preferences, but it does sound a bit strange.

One thing to keep in mind is that we did CRANK the JansZens over 100 on some of the material. Stevie Ray Vaugh's guitar shrieks on some tracks. Some older men in the room were grimacing. Also, the air conditioner was in the center of the room and very loud, masking some of the inner detail of the music. Personally, I was not impressed with the Herron amps, as I thought they did not grip the speaker like an electrostatic should be controlled. But that's my preference. Harry Pearson loved it with the giant Brystons.

Brian, are you up for a shootout of the Sound Labs and the JansZen? We could do it at my house, if you would like. I will be happy to put my wife in a hotel for a week. We can then put the speakers in my large and acoustically friendly living room to see what each can really do.
 
The thread on the apogee forum has come alive. Thanks again, Justin. If you are not stirring up the pot, you sure know someone that does! :D

So Mr. Aranyi did admit that his ears are ultra sensitive to digital. The strange thing, to me, is that he preferred the ipod to my Ayre. By all accounts, the Ayre is damn good. The Ayre was the player that created the Class A+ category in Stereophile, or whatever those clowns call it. It is definitely not as forward as some of the Ayre electronics. (By the way, Brian, I would love to do a shootout between the Ayre and your A??? cd player. Maybe we can do a get together at your house with some chicago ml club members.)
I'm game for that. :D By the way, I don't recall Mr. Aranyi saying or posting anything about preferring the ipod over the CD player. I found the ipod rather amusical and was relieved when that part of the demo ended.

Nothing wrong with his comments. As I said above, this is a hobby and we all have preferences, but it does sound a bit strange.

One thing to keep in mind is that we did CRANK the JansZens over 100 on some of the material. Stevie Ray Vaugh's guitar shrieks on some tracks. Some older men in the room were grimacing. Also, the air conditioner was in the center of the room and very loud, masking some of the inner detail of the music.
You should hear SRV play Tin Pan Alley on vinyl here, cranked up. It's almost a religious experience. :rocker:
As for the AC noise, it was a choice of either being comfortable or listening with the AC off and roasting. Jiggling the thermostat is ineffective and is hard on the AC system.

Personally, I was not impressed with the Herron amps, as I thought they did not grip the speaker like an electrostatic should be controlled. But that's my preference. Harry Pearson loved it with the giant Brystons.
I thought the amplifier-speaker match was less than ideal. The Herron amps weren't enough to light up the speakers, but with the right speakers they are good amps.

Brian, are you up for a shootout of the Sound Labs and the JansZen? We could do it at my house, if you would like. I will be happy to put my wife in a hotel for a week. We can then put the speakers in my large and acoustically friendly living room to see what each can really do.
Sure. And I imagine you'll be served with divorce papers soon afterward. :p
 
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Apparently the JansZen speaker has a treble control knob for people overly sensitive to high frequencies.

I know Sanders has one also, via a remote. I believe SoundLab has one as well. I wonder when ML will incorporate something like this into their designs as well.
 
High freq knob

Apparently the JansZen speaker has a treble control knob . . .

Our control is designed to help compensate for wall materials that are livelier than those of the JansZen "normal" room, and alters the response in a way that is different from a conventional treble control. As a side benefit, in any room, it is also useful as a way of accommodating personal preferences by adding some contour to the high frequency response without adding a consequential amount of phase skew.

For those who prefer the charms of vinyl or tape over disc or server, this control may help tame what some of you describe as a digital edge, which is no doubt reproduced quite well by any high definition speakers with a flat frequency response, but we are pretty sure that you will get the sound you like only in conjunction with analog sources.
 
I think this is a very nice looking speaker, and I also like the fact that it's not dipole. If it were priced at $15k I might take them up on their 45 day trial and seriously consider replacing my Spires, but over $20k is just too rich for my blood.
 
I have a pair of 70s era janzens in my garage! they sound pretty sweet.. and it seem they get better the louder they go. I do need to replace the woofers in them but they are still impressive.
 
For those who prefer the charms of vinyl or tape over disc or server, this control may help tame what some of you describe as a digital edge, which is no doubt reproduced quite well by any high definition speakers with a flat frequency response, but we are pretty sure that you will get the sound you like only in conjunction with analog sources.
I would assume you are the maker of the JansZen speaker with David Janszen in the signature line but no company name along with it? Other posts here suggest you are that same person. If you are the one, a couple of questions I am sure you would not mind answering since some of us may be interested in other planar, stats, or similar technologies.

"You will get the sound you like only in conjunction with analog sources" - These seems pretty limiting for a company responsible for producing speakers. And are you stating regardless of digital source and player playback (all digital playback systems) someone will ALWAYS have digital edge???

The only way to audition JansZen speakers is by having them shipped from your company (Ohio area I guess based on information on the JansZen website - funny you do not list your area on MLO being a company wanting people to know more of their product). Does a person auditioning the JansZen speaker have to pay for return shipping? What is a typical cost and preferred carrier for shipping from Ohio to NYC, or Chicago, or LA?

The JansZen site talks about a wide sweet spot but also using limited vertical dispersion. MLO owners are familiar with sweet spot limitations so can you describe a typical setup and how large sweet spots are achieved and what would be their typical size?

The JansZen site has some good information on amplifiers and speaker loads and their effect on playback. Since JansZen already talks about analog source getting the best playback sound for their product, what amplifiers do they recommend using for best playback sound? Is there a particular design, topology or company they recommend to use? Are there any companies which will not work well?

The Theater section on JansZen suggests that JansZen speakers produce great front channel playback that a center channel is not required. So running a phantom center with your AV setup will produce a better sound than IF JansZen produced a center channel to match their main speakers? Some here on the MLO site really like Phantom and their are others who prefer the use of a matched center channel. Comments on these two types of setups and why JansZen has not produced a center channel speaker?

Do the JansZen speakers also work well for Surround duties?

More Theater questions from the site. In the Theater section it says the amplified woofer option will provide a flat response to 20Hz and do it in stereo. But the specs for the speakers state down 3dB at 20Hz? Can you tell us which is the correct information?

Can you talk more about the limiting circuit and how it does not affect the sound quality of the speaker as the limiting values are reached? Many have tried limiting circuits in many different applications but never seem to reach the desired goal of being non-intrusive.

The same section from the site also states the speakers can play "quite loud". Any real world scenarios or information on this? Loud is a very subjective term. Many here on MLO love to play their music and/or movies in the 100+dB ranges. How would the JansZen perform in this area?

Thanks for being a part of the site and answer some the questions about the JansZen speaker product.
 
I would assume you are the maker of the JansZen speaker

Yes.

"You will get the sound you like only in conjunction with analog sources"

My remarks referred only to those who already prefer analog sources, and I was only saying that we don't expect our speakers to change this preference. Was shooting for humorous, but hit confusing. Sorry about that.

The only way to audition JansZen speakers is by having them shipped from your company (Ohio area I guess based on information on the JansZen website - funny you do not list your area on MLO being a company wanting people to know more of their product). Does a person auditioning the JansZen speaker have to pay for return shipping? What is a typical cost and preferred carrier for shipping from Ohio to NYC, or Chicago, or LA?

I did not know there was a shameless plug area on this forum. I must see to that ASAP.

The intent of my initial posting was just to clarify something about the room response adjustment. Please contact us directly for more information about auditions, home trials, and dealers.

The JansZen site talks about a wide sweet spot but also using limited vertical dispersion. MLO owners are familiar with sweet spot limitations so can you describe a typical setup and how large sweet spots are achieved and what would be their typical size?

At a reasonable listening distance, such as 3 meters, a stereo image is available even when one moves so far off to one side that one is directly ahead of one of the speakers, although whatever was at the image center is then moved off center substantially. Of course, as with any stereo setup, a phase-perfect image is only available on the midline. Setup is not critical, but the image is sharper in narrow rooms if the speakers are toed in a bit to reduce side-wall splash. Personally,to determine speaker-to-speaker width, I like to create a classic equalateral triangle to the listening position, if the room allows it.

The JansZen site has some good information on amplifiers and speaker loads and their effect on playback. Since JansZen already talks about analog source getting the best playback sound for their product, what amplifiers do they recommend using for best playback sound? Is there a particular design, topology or company they recommend to use? Are there any companies which will not work well?

I think a digital source is at least as appropriate as an analog one. I am sorry, increasingly so, that I did not make this more clear.

We avoid making specific equipment recommendations, since one's choices are at least partially a matter of taste. The speakers are exceptionally revealing, so whatever gear is used, its failings, if any, will probably be noticeable. Shoot for low distortion, minimal phase skew, minimal noise, clean transient response, and for the Model One, at least 250W/ch/8 Ohms. There are numerous technical approaches that accomplish these goals.

The Theater section on JansZen suggests that JansZen speakers produce great front channel playback that a center channel is not required. So running a phantom center with your AV setup will produce a better sound than IF JansZen produced a center channel to match their main speakers? Some here on the MLO site really like Phantom and their are others who prefer the use of a matched center channel. Comments on these two types of setups and why JansZen has not produced a center channel speaker?

Sorry to say, the comment regarding the pinning of the center image should be toned down a bit on that page. To clarify, if the speakers are positioned fairly near the screen, then the line source effect will mostly overcome the shifting image problem, but this is best accomplished with a center channel speaker. Although there will certainly be a market for a center channel speaker, and we have no objection to developing one, we have not yet got around to developing any speakers specifically for HT use, which a center speaker would be. To produce a center speaker with the usual low profile will require an entirely new ESL tranducer design, and there will necessarily be some horizontal lobing and diffraction problems, as with any such speaker. For those whom you mention who prefer a center channel, though, the sonic drawbacks are not the type that are likely to bother anyone listening to the portions of the soundtrack content that are generally emitted from this channel.

Do the JansZen speakers also work well for Surround duties?

They are overkill for rear and side duty, having far more bass extension than necessary, but otherwise, sure.

More Theater questions from the site. In the Theater section it says the amplified woofer option will provide a flat response to 20Hz and do it in stereo. But the specs for the speakers state down 3dB at 20Hz? Can you tell us which is the correct information?

The J1 SPECS page, which is for the passive version, says 30 Hz to 20 kHz ±3 dB, meaning the response could be down 3 dB anywhere, including the limits. The THEATER page says the powered woofer option is flat to 20 Hz, and in this case, this means not down at all at 20 Hz, although it would be fair to say "flat", even if it were down 3 dB at the limit, or as many specs are written, down 6 dB, or even 10 dB. If you see further data on the site, you may have old cached pages in your browser that should be purged.

Can you talk more about the limiting circuit and how it does not affect the sound quality of the speaker as the limiting values are reached? Many have tried limiting circuits in many different applications but never seem to reach the desired goal of being non-intrusive.

Well, now, that would be telling, and clearly, not everyone knows how to do this. I can say that a high impedance circuit monitors the voltage and deals with the overlimit peaks while displaying a wildly bright red warning. There is a limit to what it can rescue the speakers from, but a reasonable person will not push it too far above the point where the warning light is flashing, which is very loud, anyway. Mr. Pearson had no troubles, and he had 1000 W/ch on tap. Also, it won't hurt any amplifier. You can ask anyone who has seen it in action whether they noticed any effect on the sound, even when it was catching peaks. Someone who was at the CAS demo might weigh in here.

The same section from the site also states the speakers can play "quite loud". Any real world scenarios or information on this? Loud is a very subjective term. Many here on MLO love to play their music and/or movies in the 100+dB ranges. How would the JansZen perform in this area?

The J1 SPECS page includes SPL specs: 100 dB continuous avg. system SPL at 3m (10 feet); 104 dB peak SPL at 1m, single unit, i.e., you will not be disappointed by the SPL.

Thanks for being a part of the site and answer some the questions about the JansZen speaker product.

Thanks for asking your questions, and for taking the time to study our web site so thoroughly. I hope I have been helpful and not troubled anyone by sort of plugging our speakers here.
 
David,

Glad you are here to help quell or comment on wrong information regarding your product. There is so much misinformation out on audio forums these days.

Analog: Thanks for clarifying the analog preferred source statement for your product. For me it was hard not to read into it as analog being preferred.

High Frequency Control: I guess the control or adjustment pot was developed through long term trial, testing, and feedback from your many customers.

Shameless plug regarding company name: IMO I would be glad to let people know about myself, my company, and I am here to help or assist if it was my product. If in doubt about self-marketing or advertising, I would ask the moderators.

Coming onto a forum like this is a a great way for you to talk about and discuss your product(s). Being the owner of the company I thought it might be good to list your company name along with your name. I am not sure if it is a requirement here to list you are a company - I am sure the moderators will jump in and let us know.

Back to your product...

Dealers: Is San Francisco currently your only, or future, dealer/store for auditions? Did you use dealer distribution before?

Amplifiers: So like most planars, stats, JansZen like a lot of power. Most of us here say good current is needed, not just power rating of an amp. Agree? So people should look at good quality power and not just power numbers?

Stereo Image: At a reasonable listening distance, such as 3 meters, a stereo image is available even when one moves so far off to one side that one is directly ahead of one of the speakers, although whatever was at the image center is then moved off center substantially. Of course, as with any stereo setup, a phase-perfect image is only available on the midline.

So they have almost the same issues we do with our ML speakers. The newer ML models have really improved on this IMO. So JansZen with the "cylindrical" sound field is due just to the forward sound production - no rear wave. Did you ever consider rear production/sound for current or newer models?

Center Channel: It sounds like people who are happy with a Phantom center will find your products will still be sufficient. Did you ever consider making a Center Channel? If not can you list reasons? There is much discussion here on MLO about center channels and likes and dislikes with them.

Limiting Circuit: Thanks for more information on your application. Most are worried about sound quality with these and not amplifier damage. But good to hear there is no adverse affects from the circuit and amplifiers.

SPL Levels: Sorry I must have overlooked that section when I wrote my reply to you - my bad. 100dB's is very loud IMO, but those looking for high SPL levels will be glad to read this.

Powered Version: Why did you move away from the powered models of JansZen?

Re-Sale Value:If you read through our forum here, you will see discussions on reselling of speakers on the used market. With a cost in the $20k's and some people liking to make changes how well do they sell on the used market? 50%? Higher, lower?

I see for Ohio, PA, IL you could be part of a "Get Together" or Listening Event - very cool and nice offer. Would people be able to come to the JansZen Factory or Production facility (like MLO folks did with ML) for a listening sessions? One never knows when we may be driving by the area or getting together.

One last question (thanks for answering these). Is JansZen made entirely in the USA? This was a big question or issue here on the MLO site.
 
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Hi David, thanks for joining us here. While we are primarily about ML speakers, there is a very strong sub-current of ‘We’re Electrostatic fans’ as well ;)

So we welcome you, Roger Sanders, and any other ESL designer who cares to engage in a discussion with folks passionate about this technology.

That said I’ll join Dan in some Questions for you as well.


As you might have noticed from a prior comment, I like the fact that your design is a monopole.
Would you care to elaborate on your reasoning and metrics that led you to this choice.

Regarding center channels, I also have some biases (see my SL3XC design) and would agree with you that designing a horizontal center is a challenge and results in many compromises.
Do you believe that customers at this price point will put up with a line-source behind an acoustically transparent screen?

A monopole design would surely be an advantage for a center, as distances between wall and screen are usually short (<3’) and one needs to keep a speaker at least 6” away from the screen material.

On the limiter, is it at all frequency selective?

I’d assume that it is the lower frequencies (< 800hz) that one would be worried about over-excursion and / or resonances due to high-amplitude signals.
Highs are usually tapered enough by the drop in impedance an ESL naturally presents. Plus, not really excursion limited there anyway, right?

Thanks again for joining us here and answering all these questions.
 
More questions

Dan,

You are very good at spotting gaps in the information on our web site!

Room compensation adjustment
: Not really heavily tested. It's a technical item for helping to deal with wall material absorption characteristics. It happens also to provide what some will find is a pleasing set of high frequency response choices in any room. The effect might also be seen as matching to some extent the effect of audience absorption at a live event -- never does one get a flat frequency response from any position in a live audience other than the first few rows, but recordings are usually made with the microphones placed so that they will receive full spectrum sound. One thing about ESL's is that their natural output rises with frequency, so creating a flat response is one of the basic challenges. Creating a toned down but not dull or notably phase skewed high frequency response is tricky. Anyway, our control does this.

Dealers: This is a complete JansZen restart with me at the helm, after a couple of decades with no JansZen company around, and several decades with no Janszen family member involved. Been building this JansZen Loudspeaker Company for about 4 years so far. Since my father's original JansZen Laboratory in the 1950's became a split acquisition between Neshaminy Electronics and KLH, the JansZen brands you may be familiar with were relatively independent licensees, but yes, a dealer network was always used by those companies.

The San Francisco Bay area has our first dealer. Everyone is encouraged to check with your own favorite dealers about auditioning our speakers, and hearing for yourself what we can only write about here. (Thanks.) They and you may be interested to know that more models are on the way.

Amplifiers: An ESL's load characteristics vary with frequency, so it is not possible to say voltage, current, or power is the main, overall requirement. With ESL's, voltage is important at all frequencies. Voltage is what creates the electrostatic field that creates the force that moves the membrane, whereas with electrodynamic speakers, current creates the magnetic field that creates the force that moves the cone or other shape of piston. An ESL load is capacitive through most of the spectrum, which means that the impedance is usually pretty high, but at high frequencies, the load impedance drops, requiring more power, i.e., the voltage has to be able to push more current in and out of the capacitance. At very high frequencies, resistive loading dominates, but current is still needed for this as well. A capacitive load can create a challenge for amplifiers that run with low phase margin in their feedback loops, but in JansZen speakers, the capacitance is relatively low. One sign of this is that the lowest impedance that an amplifier will see from our speakers is about 4 Ohms at 20 kHz, rather better than the 1 Ohm or less that some ESL's will present, meaning that all kinds of amplifiers with sufficient power can do the job -- nothing special required in that department. At low frequencies, whether the speaker is a hybrid like ours, or a full range ESL, one way or another, either by way of the voice coil or the step-up magnetics, a combination of inductance and resistance dominates the impedance at low frequencies, creating a relatively low impedance for the bass that requires power to drive.

Stereo image: Thanks for mentioning this one! Our speakers have none of the same issues as ML's. For one thing, although you can't see through our speakers, the lack of rear radiation has quite a few sonic advantages. Not everyone will agree. Some instead feel that realism is increased by a large area dipole's greater addition of room ambience to the recorded ambience, although probably not by the peaks and dips from comb filtering caused by interference of the rear wave with itself and with the front wave, or the image smearing from widely spaced arrival times for relatively high amplitude rear reflections, or the lack of damping of the membrane motion that comes with using a see-through radiator, and which can tack resonant tails onto transients that obscure their true nature. This note addresses just a few of the aspects that set JansZen speakers apart and let them reproduce sound more naturally and realistically than other speakers.

Just as a little technical note on sound fields: A cylindrical sound field is created by a line source. A spherical field is created by a point source. Speakers of each type are approximations, but close enough. Lines create a field with intensity that drops in proportion to the distance, ie., 3 dB per doubling, 6 dB per quadrupling in distance. Point source intensity drops in proportion to the square of the distance, i.e., 6 dB per doubling, 12 dB per quadrupling. If you move away from a point source, from 1m to 3m, the level drops by a factor of 9, whereas it only drops by a factor of 3 from a line source. This is why, when one is listening from a position far off the midline of a pair of line sources, the sound from the more distant one is still loud enough to maintain a stereo image.

Resticting myself to ESL's alone: ML speakers can be considered synthetic line sources with cylindrical radiation, achieved by physically curving the source. Sound lab does something similar, with a number of flat panels arranged as facets around a curve. Quad speakers are synthetic point sources, achieved by electronic delays introduced to ring radiators arranged concentrically around a central circular radiator. Coincidentally, the delay lines roll off the high frequencies to successive rings in a way that creates a flat response from the rather large area. Sanders' speakers are close to being true plane sources, which create a field that does not drop off at all with distance, except for dissipation by the air itself. One might consider the extreme directivity of this arrangement a drawback, which plays full spectrum only along the midline and at the distance where the speakers are aimed, i.e., at a single seat, but I must say that the effect is quite amazing when listening in that seat. Ours are true lines, achieved the old fashioned way, by simply using flat sources whose widths are tailored to create the desired dispersion within their frequency ranges. This has advantages in terms of smoothness of the frequency response, uniformity of the SPL and spectrum across a wide area, and integrity of the membrane shape over time.

Center channel: I think I discussed this one already.

Powered version: Many encouraged the development of our internally tri-amplified speakers; none was interested in buying it. We think it may have a future in other parts of the World, but feel it is important to find our place first among American audiophiles, who generally prefer to have control over the amplifier choices, and an upgrade path, or at least an experimentation path, in terms of changing amplifiers. Dealers also seem to like the idea of selling amplifiers separately. One even advised that they would consider the powered version as the entry level model, and kidded that we should charge extra for the passive version. Yah, that's funny.

Building in the amplifiers does make it possible for us to optimize everything to our own standards, but these may not coincide with everyone else's standards. Also, try naming an audiophile who trusts a company that has cutting edge speaker expertise to have equal expertise in amplifier design. As it turned out, it was not as impossible as we expected to develop a passive crossover that rivals what can be done at line level with tri-amplification -- as they say, the impossible just takes a little longer -- and there are lots of excellent amplifiers out there. Several other changes were made in the process that ultimately created an exceptional result.

Regardless of the perceived drawbacks, making them powered does eliminate some bulky gear and fat cables, increasing the WAF and the convenience, and gets rid of the need for protection circuitry, somewhat offsetting the cost of the amplifiers. The powered version can be driven directly from a CD player that has a volume control, or even an iPod, eliminating a pile o' stuff, which is good not just because of the aesthetic and space issues, but cuts down on the amount of circuitry in the signal path. Since they take a single ended or balanced signal, they can be driven from a centralized sound system using generic cable without fear of noise pickup.

Used prices: Your guess is as good as mine.

Factory tours: Sorry, no. But until a dedicated listening room is created after moving to a bigger space, sincerely interested people can sometimes arrange to listen in my personal home. The room is not great, not bad, fairly typical. It has nice dimensions, but is untreated and has a 105 Hz hump that I should do something about. I don't use esoteric gear or cables. In other words, it's a pretty fair venue, in that your observations should carry over to other less than perfect rooms, and will understate the sound one would get in better rooms with better gear.

Country of origin: All major components are made in the USA, except for one injection molded part. Oh, and the woofers are foreign made. All the labor is done in the USA. Surely many of the small electronic parts and fasteners, whose origins we do not check, are foreign made, though. Not much of that kind of stuff is made here, anymore, sorry to say. We do not check specifically where our various contractors get their raw materials, such as aluminum plate, but we have been employing local shops that emphasize a made-in-USA philosophy. Lastly, the woods for the exotic veneers are probably not grown in the USA, but the veneer is cut here. I believe the paints and finishes are US made. About green-ness: The use of veneer helps conserve tropical forests. Practically all the materials are recyclable. We can not guarantee that all future models will be made the same way, but we will try.
 
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David,

I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to engage in these discussions, particularly on a board dedicated to a competing product. I find the input of knowledgeable professionals in the field such as yourself to be invaluable. You seem to have a knack for explaining highly technical concepts in a way that can be understood by those not-so-technically inclined. I have really enjoyed reading this thread. Thanks.
 
Yet more questions

Hmm, you sound like a designer, yourself, JonFo.

Would you care to elaborate on your reasoning and metrics that led you to this choice.

Check my last answer to Dan, and ask again if I wasn't clear.

Do you believe that customers at this price point will put up with a line-source behind an acoustically transparent screen?

I would expect them to welcome it if they are exposed to the right technical information or at least an audition. Also, there is an interesting challenge in deep auditoriums, where one would wish to make the dispersion vary from narrow at the rear to wide at the front, and our panels make doing this relatively easy.

A monopole design would surely be an advantage for a center, as distances between wall and screen are usually short (<3’) and one needs to keep a speaker at least 6” away from the screen material.

Essential, I would say.

On the limiter, is it at all frequency selective?

It is, in that it applies only to the ESL section. FWIW, the overvoltage protection circuit is more complex in operation than a limiter, but I suppose the term limiter has the advantage of brevity.

I’d assume that it is the lower frequencies (< 800hz) that one would be worried about over-excursion and / or resonances due to high-amplitude signals.

We cross over well above the natural resonances of the membranes and damp them anyway to avoid overshoot and ringing on transients. At least one manufacturer relies on resonance to help overcome front-to-rear cancellation at low frequencies, and ours are the only ones on the market designed to damp resonances. In the old days, the KLH Nine and the Acoustech X were the only ones. The sound reproduction from our speakers is more natural in part because of this.

Highs are usually tapered enough by the drop in impedance an ESL naturally presents.

Amplifier loading is not a factor with our speakers. 6 Ohms nominal. 4 ohms minimum. You can even use the 8 Ohm tap on tube amps without introducing distortion, which is what Mr. Pearson did with his new Mac's in an analog setup while I was making the delivery (not published), to pleasing effect.

I dunno. Relying on the inability of an amplifier to drive a high capacitance load for the purpose of tapering the high frequency response of a speaker seems a lot more problematic to me than using the dreaded and forbidden treble control found on old fashioned preamps. FWIW, as an extreme case, I have seen an amplifier that drove our speakers very nicely (John Ulrick's latest and very capable Spectron Musician III Mk2) cycle in and out of short circuit protection mode when connected to another modern ESL.

Plus, not really excursion limited there anyway, right?

Right. Excursion is inversely proportional to the square of frequency. For a given SPL, it takes four times the excursion at half the frequency.

Thanks again for joining us here and answering all these questions.

Yep.
 
David,

I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to engage in these discussions, particularly on a board dedicated to a competing product. I find the input of knowledgeable professionals in the field such as yourself to be invaluable. You seem to have a knack for explaining highly technical concepts in a way that can be understood by those not-so-technically inclined. I have really enjoyed reading this thread. Thanks.

Thanks for that, Rich. I consider myself lucky to find people who are interested! It is very pleasant to have this type of an audience, and maybe my participation will do ESL's in general some good, including JansZen's. :)
 
Hi David,

I have simply one question: what is the raison d'etre behind the dynamic driver placed above the electrostatic panel (as well as below)?

I think I know full well why I would put one there - but I am no loudspeaker designer - I just have a few "imaginative" theories about loudspeaker design of my own.

Many thanks.

Justin
 
Hi David,

I have simply one question: what is the raison d'etre behind the dynamic driver placed above the electrostatic panel (as well as below)?

I think I know full well why I would put one there - but I am no loudspeaker designer - I just have a few "imaginative" theories about loudspeaker design of my own.

Many thanks.

Justin

Three main reasons:


  1. It represents a more line-like source for the bass, which creates a somewhat cylindrical field that better matches the ESL line's cylinder, increasing spectral uniformity
  2. It creates a situation where the phase at all frequencies is optimally aligned for positions along the vertical center-line of the speaker, which is set for a 38" listening height
  3. It presents the opportunity to use dissimilar woofers, which we do in the Model One, thereby distributing their anomalies rather than overlapping and thereby doubling them; for a given SPL, this minimizes the contribution of the inevitable, if in this case minor, cone problems

A related point is that the low woofer crossover frequency, 225 Hz, avoids the creation of audible interference from the floor, and extends the portion of the spectrum carried by the ESL's throughout the band where the ear is most sensitive to a lack of fidelity. It also avoids much excitement of the cones' and surrounds' higher order vibrational modes, which are all well above the crossover point. The floor does provide bass reinforcement for the lower woofer, however, which is in part responsible for the 30 Hz cutoff (-3 dB), in spite of using a sealed enclosure.

Lastly, the use of a sealed enclosure is partially responsible for the uniquely natural integration of the electrodynamic woofers. We think the degree of integration, bass fidelity and bass extension pretty much render thoughts of using ESL woofers irrelevant.
 
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You are very good at spotting gaps in the information on our web site!
Audio information (and many other topics) are found more now from the internet than dealers. And since you have no dealers (SF soon), you site is the place for information about your product. Since you are here, it is a great way to ask about his information.

Room compensation adjustment: Not really heavily tested. It's a technical item for helping to deal with wall material absorption characteristics. It happens also to provide what some will find is a pleasing set of high frequency response choices in any room.
It is interesting that you have decided to use the HF device in an audiophile type/priced speaker. Most of the audiophiles out there may view this as taboo. But this is just conjecture and time will tell if it is well received or not. As you know ML had the extra tweeter (only turn on and off) on one of their models. It has not come back since.

Dealers: This is a complete JansZen restart with me at the helm, after a couple of decades with no JansZen company around, and several decades with no Janszen family member involved. Been building this JansZen Loudspeaker Company for about 4 years so far.
4 years trying to bring back your fathers product - commendable and hopefully you will have success.

They and you (Dealers) may be interested to know that more models are on the way.
So with more models on the way you must have very good sales numbers of the current model. Any way you want to share how the current model is selling - figures?


This note addresses just a few of the aspects that set JansZen speakers apart and let them reproduce sound more naturally and realistically than other speakers.
Hopefully some of the ML members living close to your future dealer will be able to stop in an audition them and see how they sound. Do you know what other speakers, electronics, etc/ this future dealer will offer for comparisons and usage with your products? I guess one can stop by the dealer link to see. But being a dealer for you, I would think you would want to know what other products and rooms will be used to show-off your speakers.

Powered version: Many encouraged the development of our internally tri-amplified speakers; none was interested in buying it.
WOW, no sales at all??? I bet that was very disappointing and financially costly. I have heard a few Tri-Amp'ed setups and they were just stunning. Any idea what happened?

Powered version:We think it may have a future in other parts of the World, but feel it is important to find our place first among American audiophiles, who generally prefer to have control over the amplifier choices, and an upgrade path, or at least an experimentation path, in terms of changing amplifiers. Dealers also seem to like the idea of selling amplifiers separately. One even advised that they would consider the powered version as the entry level model, and kidded that we should charge extra for the passive version. Yah, that's funny.
More for passive huh? Yeah I would agree that's funny. Just thinking that being passive could warrant more money or would mean better sound is an audio fallacy.

ML with their new powers woofer sections have been pretty well received by most audio lovers, even the audiophiles who love choosing their amps. Did JansZen ever consider this path?

Building in the amplifiers does make it possible for us to optimize everything to our own standards, but these may not coincide with everyone else's standards.
I would agree a designer could really optimize their speaker. But in the audiophile world this does not seem to work. Great for the ones who just want to buy and plug in - just like the power Meridian setup.

Also, try naming an audiophile who trusts a company that has cutting edge speaker expertise to have equal expertise in amplifier design.
For complete amplification I would agree. But in the hybrid powered designed companies like ML and others using the ICE or other similar technologies has proven to be very successful and accepted.

The powered version can be driven directly from a CD player that has a volume control, or even an iPod, eliminating a pile o' stuff, which is good not just because of the aesthetic and space issues, but cuts down on the amount of circuitry in the signal path. Since they take a single ended or balanced signal, they can be driven from a centralized sound system using generic cable without fear of noise pickup.
I think you will get a lot of debate on this issue. Some, like myself, have heard CD players connected directly to Amps, and I have always preferred a good active pre amp in the path. But then again their are others who have liked the CD/AMP connection, or even a passive instead of the active pre amp.

Used prices: Your guess is as good as mine.
I have no guess, but thought you might since it was your product.

Factory tours: Sorry, no. But until a dedicated listening room is created after moving to a bigger space
So the factory with all your staff is not really a place to listen. Hopefully when you move into the new larger space you can provide listening rooms as this seems to be more of a normal thing now. BTW, how big is the factory now and staff and where you are moving to. Sounds very exciting for JansZen.

Country of origin: All major components are made in the USA, except for one injection molded part. Oh, and the woofers are foreign made. All the labor is done in the USA.
So all labor is done by your staff in your factory. Sounds just like ML.

Thank you again for your response to my and other MLO member questions.

I wish you all the best for sales of your new product especially with the issues you had with your powered models. It is a tough time for a company and products not only in audio but in today's economy.

Dan
 
It is interesting that you have decided to use the HF device in an audiophile type/priced speaker. Most of the audiophiles out there may view this as taboo.

It is a rotary switch, connected to some parts. In one position, the parts that create the contours are bypassed out of the circuit, and in the other positions, any of four configurations can be selected. The entire thing is passive. I do not see what could be taboo about that.

Do you know what other speakers, electronics, etc/ this future dealer will offer for comparisons and usage with your products?

http://www.stereounlimited.com/

WOW, no sales at all??? I bet that was very disappointing and financially costly. I have heard a few Tri-Amp'ed setups and they were just stunning.

Not zero, but it was not a market success. It was just a mistake. Live and learn. The technology is still there for later.

ML with their new powers woofer sections have been pretty well received by most audio lovers, even the audiophiles who love choosing their amps. Did JansZen ever consider this path?

Okay. Now you are just pulling my leg. Recheck our THEATER page again, upon which you based one of your own questions. LOL

I would agree a designer could really optimize their speaker. But in the audiophile world this does not seem to work. Great for the ones who just want to buy and plug in - just like the power Meridian setup.

Meridian's success is an example that we found falsely reassuring.

For complete amplification I would agree. But in the hybrid powered designed companies like ML and others using the ICE or other similar technologies has proven to be very successful and accepted.

Of course, I could say. Our powered woofers use ICEpower modules, but with a linear supply.

I think you will get a lot of debate on this issue. Some, like myself, have heard CD players connected directly to Amps, and I have always preferred a good active pre amp in the path. But then again their are others who have liked the CD/AMP connection, or even a passive instead of the active pre amp.

Others may get a lot of debate. We will just try to accommodate what people want.

So all labor is done by your staff in your factory. Sounds just like ML.

If you say so.

I wish you all the best for sales of your new product especially with the issues you had with your powered models. It is a tough time for a company and products not only in audio but in today's economy.

Yep. Thanks.
 
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Originally Posted by DTB300: ML with their new powers woofer sections have been pretty well received by most audio lovers, even the audiophiles who love choosing their amps. Did JansZen ever consider this path?

Okay. Now you are just pulling my leg. Recheck our THEATER page again, upon which you based one of your own questions. LOL
Okay, so I missed that one. :D

Originally Posted by DTB300: So all labor is done by your staff in your factory. Sounds just like ML.

If you say so.
No, I asked a question and associated it to similarities with ML as a "possible" baseline. Many here have visited ML and their facility and could relate.

You did not answer the question along with the other question about how many of your current models have sold? Does no response equate to an assumption of no sales (review models to TAS, SoundStage etc. do not count) like the powered versions?

Are you then just a one man/person show trying to bring back the JansZen product?

These questions, just like the technical ones, are important to know and consider when one selects a product, especially in this price range.

Based on statements from your website, it "sounds" like your have brought back a product worth listening to if one is in or around Columbus, OH, or the SF area in the future.
 
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