Have to make do w/odd shape room

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Satch

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I've been playing around with some DIY sound traps. Basically they are just pegboard with 3 1/2" fiberglass wrapped in linen. Also a box of Auralex panels (24 1'X1') with 8 1' corner panels.

One problem is the entrance door to my living room six feet to the left of the speaker in the photo. You can see the DIY panels, 2'X4' and 2'X2' along with some of the Auralex panels.

I'm not sure of posting protocol, so I'll post this and add other photos with the reply...
 

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Back wall

The room is 14' from front wall to back wall.
 

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Practice corner

This shows the other side of the back wall.
 

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The problem

when I'm sitting in the "Good " chair looking at the system, to the left, six feet from the left speaker is the entrance to my place. To the right the front wall ends and is open to the kitchen.

So what I have is a 13' front wall very much open on the right side. The back wall is 20'.

In order to center the vocals on the system I have to cut the left side volume on the preamp.

Far from the ideal balanced listening room, but that is the only way it can be set up so I'll just have to deal with it.

Any advice?
 
My room is just as difficult and I'd appreciate any advise too.

I've posted about it before, taken the advice and had a great improvement, but nothing like I experienced before in my old room.

At least I've got a separate room now, but the room opens out to a large, tiled kitchen / family room area. I've since placed a rug under the dining table (see pics below) and I close a door to block the sound travelling around behind kitchen, further muddying up the sound.

One day I'll get doors, but that's way in the future!
 

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Hi Satch,

Yes, these types of open plan primary living are a real challenge to deal with. When trying to fit a speaker system that not only has large radiating surfaces, but does it front and back.

The first goal is one of trying to achieve balance. As you note, your soundstage is so lopsided, you need to compensate with level adjustments in the preamp.
This tells me your room is proving more reinforcement on the left, since you have a wall and associated corner in the front left of the room, but none on the right, that makes sense.

The left channel rear wave is hitting the front wall and reflecting at an angle onto the left side wall and then back into the listening area. The right speaker is getting no such help, as its rear wave, once it bounces off the front wall travels off into your kitchen, where it’s pretty well dispersed before any of it comes back into the listening area (and much more delayed).

Not only does this affect mids and highs, it affects the bass as well, as the left front corner is helping some of the bass frequencies, but the open right side is not.

The answer therefore is to try and balance out the front stage by ensuring that the rear waves are better balanced. We’ll get to how in a bit.

The other thing affecting your soundstage is possible left side wall reflections from the front wave, but looking at your toe-in, I’d say it might not be very significant. But it wouldn’t hurt to experiment with some absorption on the left wall at first reflection points for the front wave.
On the right, nothing to worry about, as it’s open, right?

The other concern is your seating position is very close to the rear wall, and again there’s an asymmetry to deal with. Your right ear is perceiving rear reflected sound from the bookcase, so it’s slightly diffused and delayed less than the reflections from your left, which will be sharper (no diffusive surfaces) and slightly longer delay (2ms or so)

Ok, so how to deal with all this?

It’s not going to be easy, and it’s going to take a good bit of DIY or commercial room treatment products to do this right, but it will seriously improve the balance and frequency response of the system.

I’ll use commercial tool names and descriptions (from RealTraps), but feel free to substitute equivalent DIY solutions, so long as they really perform in terms of broadband absorption.

First, the front wall. Even though we’ve identified the problem as being focused on the left front, I recommend you treat both left and right halves of the front wall equally. This will maintain not only vsual symmetry, but acoustic symmetry as well.
The most important thing to do is to provide trully broadband absorption. The auralex and DIY panels depicted are doing very little below 500 hz (if that). What it will take is the equivalent of two MiniTrap HF’s and one Mondo trap behind each speaker. The minitraps are placed vertically, side by side, absorbing the primary rear reflections from the panels. The Mondo is laid horizontally just below the Mini’s to provide deeper mid-bass and bass absorption. All these products are offset from the wall by three to four inches (to improve bass effectiveness).

This will pretty much deal with the majority of the rear wave. But we still have some lingering effect from the left corner and wall. So I’d add a pair of mondo’s straddling the front left corner (if they fit between front wall and side wall / door). This will provide additional bass trapping that will further balance the fact that the right side is open.

As noted above, look into treating the first reflection on the left wall, a 2x4’ microtrap might be all it takes.
And finally, the rear wall. I’d add some minitrap HF’s (as we need to damp the high-frequencies as well), placed horizontally, centered on the seated head level. This will improve the imaging from the front, as it’s not being interfered by such short (<10ms) reflections from the rear wall.

Optional, extra credit would be to add another pair of Mondo’s stacked int eh left rear corner, to help in general room bass management. Again, helping balance the open right side.

All this bass trapping will not only help your stereo, but should vastly improve your practice sessions with either the acoustic double bass or the amplified bass.

Anyway, I’ve rambled on long enough about all this. Please accept this as just my humble opinion and I hope this helps.
 
My room is just as difficult and I'd appreciate any advise too.
...

Amey, much of what I wrote for Satch applies to your situation as well.

Definitely need to put some absorption just behind the speakers, as that will have the biggest impact.

The rest is typical bass management as described by Ethan in his articles.
 
Thanks JonFo,

Although I think it sounds great now, I can see Real Traps in the near future. :)

Satch
 
The problem corner

This photo shows how the door is in the corner and opens In. Thats the main challenge. I need to squeeze in the best possible sound trap(s) in this left corner and still be able to get through the door. That is the main entrance to the place.

Priority #1 Get the best sound out the stereo system.

#2 Be able to get through the door so I can check the surf from my balcony.

#3 Make it look pretty, Just kidding, who cares what it looks like as long as it sounds good.
 

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This photo shows how the door is in the corner and opens In. Thats the main challenge. I need to squeeze in the best possible sound trap(s) in this left corner and still be able to get through the door. That is the main entrance to the place..
Ethan has always suggested one on the door and one of the wall - instead of the normal across the corner. Not sure if you can get away with one on the door.
 
Maybe somebody here could get Ethan to look at the photos in this thread and post his very respected advice for this kind of situation. It is a challenge and I know there is no perfect solution. A best case compromise is something that I'd be willing to shell out some cash for and I'd like to go with Real Traps.

Satch
 
Mondos or Minis

This photo shows the right side of the front wall. The wall is sheetrock and insulated w/3 1/2" fiberglass and on the other side there is a queen size Murphy fold up bed that usually stays in the upright position.

Between the TV and the thermostat on the right side I can squeeze a 24" wide panel. On the right side I have enough room for 2 24" wide panels without blocking the door.

How about above? Maybe have a panel (or two) at 45* from ceiling to wall?

Most of the left side wall is windows with shutters. Same with the left and right sides of the rear wall. A 2X2' panel under the window on the door is possible.

I've noticed a bigger soundstage and tighter overall sound with just these DIY's. It's all about the music, right?

Satch
 

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Satch,
I'm going to recommend some re-arranging of the room:
See if you can make the rear wall the front and visa versa. you can treat those corners better and also control reflection on the short (now) rear wall better too.
Or utilize the space by maybe putting the speakers on the current rear and left wall, sorta catty-corner.
Just a thought.
 
Hello all,

Jim at RealTraps here. Ethan visits so many forums he sometimes gets a bit behind, so I thought I'd pipe up here....

Overall I agree with JonFo's advice in the above post. That's right on the money, and he has great experience in getting RealTraps products to work best with the special needs of Martin Logan speakers.

He is also correct that treating the corners for "general room bass management." I would say, though, that this isn't extra credit, but part of the actual test itself..... heh. Also, don't forget about the wall/ceiling corners, or even the wall/floor corners if appropriate, ie, you don't want anyone tripping over them.
 
I ordered 2 HF minitraps from Real Traps on Wednesday. They got here early today (Friday).

I have to give Ethan his due. I spoke with him when I placed my order and he took the time to help me out and provide some guidance. These are some well made pieces of equipment. I certainly could not have duplicated this quality in a home made piece.

I put them up flat against the walls directly behind the speakers with the top edge 2 inches higher than the panel. Quite easy with a laser to keep them at the same height.

This has got to be the best bang for $400.00 I've spent in a long time. I was somewhat suspect to be honest. I'm not an audio writer, so you won't hear all the adjectives from me. I can say the presentation is just out there. Violins have moved up and horns moved further back. The seperation is much better than before and the instruments are getting very close to where they "should" be. Bass is getting better but not as defined as I think it can be with some additional pieces. The wife just asked can she cover them with some material. I asked Ethan about that. (Thinking ahead). He said yes as long as it not a shiney fabric. I'm not certain on how to accomplish this since the frames are metal.

I read the post above by JohnFo about using 2 Traps behind each speaker. Would the effect be about the same if I used another HF trap horizontally and then a Mondo below it also in the horizontal located on the center of the wall?

Everybody have a good weekend.

Gordon
 
Hey Gordon,

I also ordered two Mini Traps and had a talk with Ethan about my odd shaped room and how to get the best out of it. I'll probably order some Corner Traps and maybe something with a stand for the left side in front of the window and something for the wall behind my head... I've also had some e-mail talks with Jim at Real Traps and he has been very helpful, knows his stuff.

Satch
 
I put them up flat against the walls directly behind the speakers with the top edge 2 inches higher than the panel. Quite easy with a laser to keep them at the same height.

This has got to be the best bang for $400.00 I've spent in a long time.

Gordon, glad to hear you had the same experience I did. Thanks for echoing my sentiments. I personally feel the "ambiance" factor of ESL speakers just gets in the way of good sound. By absorbing that back wave, you can really hear what these speakers are capable of. Now get some bass traps for the corners of your room and you will experience that tight, defined, incredible bass that you expect.

As for putting cloth over the panels, you could wrap it around the frame to the back side and use straight pins to attach it to the cloth on the back side of the trap. From the front it would look seamless.
 
Rich,

Thanks for the tip on the straight pins. I would have never thought of that!! Plus the wife is very happy now and is going out today shopping for some "stuff" to make them look better. I guess the compromise is worth it.

I think I'm going to try 2 tri-corners on floor and a Mondo centered on the front wall.

One issue I think I may have to address is we have a large, box type audio stand centered on the front wall. It is a massive chunk of wood with a lot of drawers and cabinets. My thinking is that this cabinet is creating problems with bass reproduction.

Anybody have any opinions about this big box?

Gordon
 
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