Finding "perfect" system synergy

[David Matz]

I was wondering what some of the members here think about system synergy. Is it all random, trial and error? Or are there patterns? Is there a scientific framework to help set the rules? Can someone definitively say, for example, that BAT and Cary electronics will not work well in the same system, or is it all based on personal preference.

Thanks as always,
David

 

[DTB300]

I was wondering what some of the members here think about system synergy. Is it all random, trial and error? Or are there patterns? Is there a scientific framework to help set the rules? Can someone definitively say, for example, that BAT and Cary electronics will not work well in the same system, or is it all based on personal preference.

IMO, System Synergy is what it is all about - but it is based on the preferences of the owner of the system. It is all about matching up components (all parts including cables and the room) that obtain the desired results you are looking for in terms of sound.

I cannot tell you how many times I have heard Mega $$$ systems that just did not do it for me. $$$ is not the answer to System Synergy.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi David,

Interesting thread and I hope others provide input. As we all know, there are so many variables that impact the overall "personal" synergy you seek and only you can decide.

Having said that, I believe there are some general commonalities or "rules of thumb" that I've used over the last 30 years or so.

First, and most important in my opinion, is your personal taste regarding the overall presentation that you like. For me, I've always preferred a somewhat more detailed, "up front" sounding system versus a more laid back sound. This doesn't mean "bright" per se but an experience that more closely resembles a Row C or D seat in a concert hall versus a mid to back of hall seat. The former allows one to hear the indivdual parts of the whole but does compromise the ability to better hear the overall blending of instruments that a "further" perspective allows.

Second, I think most high end component manufacturers have a recognizable "house" sound. This is something you can confirm by talking with other folks or going to listen to various components at various locations.

The caveat in the latter approach is how much the room influences the sound of the component and, the synergy between that component and the rest of the components in the system. The same caveat exists for the former given the fact that you are relying on other peoples perspective in their listening environment.

To help to add some "knowns" to the synergy issue, I'll use the ML panels as an example. We know the impedance loads of the panels are somewhat challenging so an amp that has "high current" capabilities would likely be a better match to address the panel impedance issues. However, there are many members that may disagree with this generalization based on their own personal listening preferences / experiences.

Once you are through with the speaker / equipment exercise, you then confront the room interface issue such as standing waves, reflectivity, and other room characteristics that impact the final sound. And then there's the proverbial cabling issue which, after many years of listening, I have come to agree with others that espouse the theory that cabling acts like a "tone control" that affects the overall sound of your equipment and the room in which it is located.

As much as I would like to say that there are enough "knowns" to address the overall synergy issue, my sense, especially once you get your system finely tuned, is that it is a matter of personal preference when all is said and done.

I hope other members chime in on this topic because it is so vital to maximizing the potential performance of a system to your personal tastes.

GG

 

[Rich]

I think it really is all driven by personal preference. There is more great high end audio gear (components, speakers, cabling, accessories, etc.) out there right now than ever before in history. And so many different components from different manufacturers will work well together and will produce a certain type of sound. The question really boils down to which type of sound you prefer. What is highly detailed to me may sound etched and cold to someone else. What they consider warm and musical, I may think is overly euphonic and distorted with rolled off highs. And there are a million shades of gray in between all these extremes.

And it isn't just about the sound. We fall in love with components because of elegant design, sturdy build quality, and often times because of the pedigree of the manufacturer. All of these things influence how our systems come together. Ultimately, it is a lot of trial and error. We buy or borrow a product and try it in our systems. If we are happy with the result, we keep it and move on from there, looking for the next area to upgrade. Opinions from others certainly help us to understand the benefits, limitations, and house sound of a product. That is why forums such as this one are so useful.

I don't think there is a scientific framework to follow that will ensure system synergy, but I think there are always scientific principles to consider with each purchase that will help determine the ultimate outcome. For instance, there are valid scientific reasons why you don't want to pair a SET amp with an electrostatic speaker. Or why it is helpful to treat the room with bass traps and some absorption or diffusion behind a dipole speaker. Or why you don't want to use an ipod playing mp3s as your source. But there are just too many variables to have an overall scientific framework. For every rule you tried to come up with, there would be ten exceptions.

Science is important every step of the way, but just as important is experience. Doing this as a hobby for years and years, you gain a lot of wisdom and experience that helps guide you toward finding the system synergy you are looking for. I have listened to a lot of different high end systems and each one is a completely different mix of components, but all the personal systems I have heard have sounded great. The only really bad sounding ones have been at the dealer showrooms. That's because people who care take the time and the effort to piece together a system that is more than the sum of its parts. That is what system synergy is all about.

For me, the key with building a system is starting with the best speakers you can afford, and then slowly upgrading each component in the chain above them -- first the amp, then the preamp, then the source, then the cables and accessories. This way you can really hear how each upgrade affects the sound coming out of the speakers and changes the overall synergy that you are trying for.

 

[risabet]

Synergy is the key. The problem is that one has to try so many items or get input from other to get to a system that has good synergy. Some components will have synchronicity with other components with no rhyme or reason. For this reason I tend to gravitate towards, say, amps and preamps from the same manufacturer. I have found that to be the way, for me, to get good synergy in the electronics (note my system). Speakers are a different issue and I've yet to determine anyway to gauge how they will work with a specific amp. Also, the speaker/amp interface is more subject to subjective judgements and of course room effects than are electronics.

 

[Joey_V]

I agree with Risabet and that synergy is key... and that I'm also striving to match the pre with the amp both from the same manufacturer. I believe this is one way to get solid synergy from a system.

 

[jfm]

i buy the idea of synergy too.

however, one of the most intriguing thoughts on this subject that i have come across is from charles hansen of ayre.

"I don't really believe in system matching. The idea that certain components create a good synergy together is appealing but largely rooted in erroneous assumptions."

here's the link on the thread on audio asylum:
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/amp/messages/9/91096.html

 

[C.A.P]

I need time to think ! I will post in a bit !

 

[Satch]

As far as I'm concerned there is no "perfect" system synergy. I think synergy is more of an ethereal goal than a scientific equation. But what do I know I'm just a dumb bass player and I'd rather hear my favorite music on a crappy boombox than listen to crappy music on an audiophiles wet dream system.

Satch

 

[Gordon Gray]

As far as I'm concerned there is no "perfect" system synergy. I think synergy is more of an ethereal goal than a scientific equation. But what do I know I'm just a dumb bass player and I'd rather hear my favorite music on a crappy boombox than listen to crappy music on an audiophiles wet dream system.

Satch

Really. Have fun with your boombox.

GG

 

[Bernard]

............ I'd rather hear my favorite music on a crappy boombox than listen to crappy music on an audiophiles wet dream system.

Satch

I'm with you. I would rather listen to Beethoven on Bose than (c)rap on ML Statements.

 

[Satch]

Just trying to keep the conversation lively

Satch

 

[risabet]

As far as I'm concerned there is no "perfect" system synergy. I think synergy is more of an ethereal goal than a scientific equation.
Satch

I agree to a point. There are interactions in the audio chain that we can't measure that undoubtedly affect the sound. In this instance there is an "ethereal" quality to the synergy in a system. Systems still requires us to find that synergy so as to benefit the reproduction of music. The future may provide a scientific, measurable quality to the synergy, though the absence of measurable proof doesn't deter me from trying to find that synergy.

 

[Satch]

I guess what prompted my little spitball from the back of the classroom was the word "perfect" used with synergy.

Looking at it from a musicians point of view, Synergy is more about human variables. Personalities, level of talent, having a good day (or not) audience reaction, room acoustics, "chicken wire?" etc.

Gordon was absolutely right to call me on it. "Enjoy your boombox" Ouch! That made me run over and hug my new Vistas and yell noooooo!

I'd love to some day be able to actually listen to ML Statements with superior upstream components, even if I had to listen to Britney Spears. But I know I'll always be able to throw Jimi Hendrix on a cheap boombox, smile and say "Hello, my old friend".

Satch

 

[Audioseduction]

I think a manufacture that puts out an all in one system like this one is a perfect synergy.

 

[Craig]

As far as I'm concerned there is no "perfect" system synergy. I think synergy is more of an ethereal goal than a scientific equation. But what do I know I'm just a dumb bass player and I'd rather hear my favorite music on a crappy boombox than listen to crappy music on an audiophiles wet dream system.

Satch

The most coveted function of an audio system is the ability to change the music at will. Thank god I don't have to listen to crappy music on a crappy boombox.

 

[lugano]

You can preach sinergy only if you put your room into the equation. If you don't, you are merely talking about it.

 

[risabet]

You can preach sinergy only if you put your room into the equation. If you don't, you are merely talking about it.

Yes and no. Certainly the room doesn't influence the amps ability to adequately drive and control the speaker, nor does it affect the resonance frequency of the arm/cart/album interface. These are issues of synergy that are independent of the room the system is in. The only aspect of synergy that relates to the room is the aspect of in-room frequency response (nulls and peaks, say). The electrical synergy of the system is independent of the room.

 

[Rich]

The electrical synergy of the system is independent of the room.

Agreed. I think when people speak of "system synergy," they are generally referring to the synergy between electronic and mechanical components of their audio system and the cabling that hooks it all together.

Tuning the room is a related but somewhat different topic in my opinion, and by no means any less important. Regardless of the system components you put in a room, you still want to get the room to sound as good as possible (i.e.: achieving flattest possible frequency response, minimizing effects of standing waves and room modes, controlling early reflections, lowering reflection decay times, etc.).

 

[DTB300]

The electrical synergy of the system is independent of the room.

But isn't the sound you are hearing electrical turned into mechanical??? And the mechanical sound is affected by the room and contents. And if the room did not matter in the equation then it is just all electrical properties determining the sound of the setup? So a specific set of electrical properties equate to good sound?

Just some thoughts....