I understand line source dispersion properties, Alan, but limited vertical dispersion != no vertical dispersion. If we could take two ETC measurements in a room using ML's, one with wood and one with carpeted floors, I'd bet you'll see a lot more early arriving HF with the wood floor.
Ethan Winer may be on the verge of proving expensive interconnects don't matter.
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He doesn't mean they are literally equivalent to a tone control, but that they can have a similar effect in practice. Capacitance, inductance, and resistance effects in a cable can act as an R-C Low Pass Filter, cutting off high frequencies, or as an R-L High Pass Filter, cutting off low frequencies. This is why different cables can give you a very different sound, even with all else being equal. The longer the cable, the more these effects come into play. By the way, this is not some audiophile dream. This is basic, proven science.
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Adam,
You are correct my friend and I was over simplifying the concept. I meant that they can act as tone controls in a very "broad" context.
As with most folks, I have my "boneyard" of cables that I've owned over the years. And I've listened to them enough, in various system iterations, to become familiar with their general sonic signature.
Example. If my system needs more top end extension with a more "analytical midrange" and less bass weight, I can substitute a Mapleshade IC, a DH Labs Silver based IC or a Kimber Cable PBJ IC and adjust the overall tonal quality in that desired direction. If I want a more toned down top with a fuller midrange and mid bass, I would install an older Tara Labs coax cable.
I obviously don't do that anymore but it is useful to help a friend set up a system and determine his or her biases regarding tonal "flavor". I've also used this to investigate / confirm differences I hear when I install a new component.
Hope that helps.
Best,
Gordon
You are correct my friend and I was over simplifying the concept. I meant that they can act as tone controls in a very "broad" context.
As with most folks, I have my "boneyard" of cables that I've owned over the years. And I've listened to them enough, in various system iterations, to become familiar with their general sonic signature.
Example. If my system needs more top end extension with a more "analytical midrange" and less bass weight, I can substitute a Mapleshade IC, a DH Labs Silver based IC or a Kimber Cable PBJ IC and adjust the overall tonal quality in that desired direction. If I want a more toned down top with a fuller midrange and mid bass, I would install an older Tara Labs coax cable.
I obviously don't do that anymore but it is useful to help a friend set up a system and determine his or her biases regarding tonal "flavor". I've also used this to investigate / confirm differences I hear when I install a new component.
Hope that helps.
Best,
Gordon
Hocky
Well-known member
And this is why "hifi" companies stay in business. hah
This fuller midrange and midbass is the exact same quality 3 of us here in London get from Tara's power cable (Cobalt). Wrongly matched, it can darken the sound though.
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Quite profound. Care to elaborate?
roberto
Well-known member
Hola Gordon. You know this: in ML electrostatic speaker, copper is good for bass and mid-range. Not too god at highs. Silver is good for highs, very good on the mid-range, and good at the bass. You can use the combination of these metals, copper and silver to balance the sound ease.
As I always say, let your ears decide. If you can´t hear any difference, its OK! If you can hear a difference, its time to do some cable changes on your system to the ge most of it. I also agreed here with Mega-bucks cable. There are a lot of lower priced cables that do a hell of the job, with quality sound. But you must do some research and critical listening to choose the right ones for your system. Also cables, are a matter of liking!
As I always say, let your ears decide. If you can´t hear any difference, its OK! If you can hear a difference, its time to do some cable changes on your system to the ge most of it. I also agreed here with Mega-bucks cable. There are a lot of lower priced cables that do a hell of the job, with quality sound. But you must do some research and critical listening to choose the right ones for your system. Also cables, are a matter of liking!
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Hi Roberto,
First off, good to hear from you my friend. Two comments.
1) I've had MBL 116's for some five years now. You can see photos of my current system by clicking on the link at the bottom.
2) I am quite happy with my Shunyata Research and DH Labs cabling. Moving towards all SR wire since I am a believer in the concept of "synergy".
Unknown as to why you think I am not. Merely commenting on Mark's initial post and things "morphed" from there. Of course, once one ventures into more "boutique" brands, some will chime in calling it "fairy dust", a waste of money, and calling me and others delusional, etc. That's fine with me. Really don't care what others think. I am merely posting to "share" my experiences. I do ascribe to your basic premise of "trusting one's ears". Unfortunate that some in the the objective crowd cannot understand or tolerate an opinion that differs from theirs. Certainly discourages me (and probably others) from posting on this topic anymore since you open yourself up to "pot shots" and other speculative, uninformed and at times derogatory comments / opinions.
Bottom line for me. If you haven't heard a product, any product in your system, you have no basis to comment on its performance. Period.
Best,
Gordon
First off, good to hear from you my friend. Two comments.
1) I've had MBL 116's for some five years now. You can see photos of my current system by clicking on the link at the bottom.
2) I am quite happy with my Shunyata Research and DH Labs cabling. Moving towards all SR wire since I am a believer in the concept of "synergy".
Unknown as to why you think I am not. Merely commenting on Mark's initial post and things "morphed" from there. Of course, once one ventures into more "boutique" brands, some will chime in calling it "fairy dust", a waste of money, and calling me and others delusional, etc. That's fine with me. Really don't care what others think. I am merely posting to "share" my experiences. I do ascribe to your basic premise of "trusting one's ears". Unfortunate that some in the the objective crowd cannot understand or tolerate an opinion that differs from theirs. Certainly discourages me (and probably others) from posting on this topic anymore since you open yourself up to "pot shots" and other speculative, uninformed and at times derogatory comments / opinions.
Bottom line for me. If you haven't heard a product, any product in your system, you have no basis to comment on its performance. Period.
Best,
Gordon
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roberto
Well-known member
Gordon, due to my language barrier, I did not meant to address my opinion to only you! Please excuse me! I was trying to confirm your comment about using the cables as ¨tone controls¨. I am with you. You can use different brand of cables and metals to tuned up your overall sound.
I recently did this on my system, and I am very happy with the results. I was using the Nordost blue heaven speaker cable for my CLXs. Then I took four DH Labs 2.M T-14 speaker cable and solder the both red wire color and black wire color and solder them together, making one conductor, soldered with wonder solder at each end one Zplug black, and did the same thing for the rest of the T-14. So I got 2 red Zplugs wires and 2 black Zplug wires. This array makes each T-14 cable with a gauge of No. 10 instead of 14. Replaced the Nordost for these new cables, and I can report that the stage did opened wider and better depth too. I think that my Nordost Blue Heaven was getting old, and it was time to do the change. Perhaps newer Blue Heaven might sound good to. But what happened here in my system doing this changed of cables, its an easy tell of the difference for good.
I recently did this on my system, and I am very happy with the results. I was using the Nordost blue heaven speaker cable for my CLXs. Then I took four DH Labs 2.M T-14 speaker cable and solder the both red wire color and black wire color and solder them together, making one conductor, soldered with wonder solder at each end one Zplug black, and did the same thing for the rest of the T-14. So I got 2 red Zplugs wires and 2 black Zplug wires. This array makes each T-14 cable with a gauge of No. 10 instead of 14. Replaced the Nordost for these new cables, and I can report that the stage did opened wider and better depth too. I think that my Nordost Blue Heaven was getting old, and it was time to do the change. Perhaps newer Blue Heaven might sound good to. But what happened here in my system doing this changed of cables, its an easy tell of the difference for good.
Bottom line for me. If you haven't heard a product, any product in your system, you have no basis to comment on its performance. Period.
Best,
Gordon
Gordon, I will chime in my 3 polish cents worth.. I would really like to know how many actually have had a boutique ,Esoteric cable set up in their system.. One finds comfort in their knowing that they heard them at a salon or show and making a BLANKET judgments based on justifying their own ego..
You said it best ..IF YOU HAVE NOT HEARD IT IN YOUR SYSTEM ,you cant make a statement..
Bernard
Well-known member
Gordon, you no doubt mean objective.
I am one of those who are leery of posting in a cable thread because of the derogatory comments I have had directed at me (e.g. "fan boy whore", which I saw before a moderator consigned it to the cyber toilet to which it belonged), but this thread so far has been relatively civil.
Bernard
Well-known member
Chris, I have evaluated a number of cables and components in my own system without any money changing hands prior.
In general, my expectations in comparing stuff are low. I don't want to hear better than what I have as that could cost me money. Sometimes I hear better, but not enough to make me change, and sometimes I hear no difference.
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Hi Bernard,
Thanks for catching the oops. Agreed that it hasn't descended too far into the toilet but, like you, I do get tired of the same old, predictable, speculative (without any firm basis) responses. However, it's my fault for partaking in the discussion. Something I need to evaluate going forward.
Best,
Gordon
Gordon no need to get too sensitive, after all it's an internet forum for crying out loud ! Now just to show you that not all of us on the M/L forum are the only wacko's out there ...................over on the AA forum there is a guy boosting about the $800 power cord he put on his Oppo 103 player ! Now as response to your post (#68) ....... I haven't heard but I'm still gonna say he's nuts !
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Understood Dave. I guess I'm more in the camp of "if it makes you happy, who am I question your judgement".
It's his money and I trust no one put a gun to his head.
Take care my friend.
Gordon
It's his money and I trust no one put a gun to his head.
Take care my friend.
Gordon
I'm going to have to agree with your prognosis!
I do believe people should be free to waste their money however they see fit and please understand that the word "waste" is purely how the rest of the world looks at something.
If someone who cares nothing for RC Helicopters and thought they were stupid were to hear I had spent nearly $50K on this hobby, they would consider that wasted money. Some of it was learning experience money that in hindsight I would say was a waste too, but overall someone with different priorities would think it was all waste. The same goes for wood working and many other hobbies. I've lost many 10's of thousands in depreciation on boats, cars etc.. over the years.
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Mark,
I'm sure you have worked hard for your money and have every right to "reward" yourself with expenditures that make you happy. If one doesn't do this, why bother?
Gordon
I'm sure you have worked hard for your money and have every right to "reward" yourself with expenditures that make you happy. If one doesn't do this, why bother?
Gordon
User211
Well-known member
After using a test mic for a bit, it became very apparent to me in a very short period of time how effective they are.
Seriously, they are amazing. They are easily capable of showing repeatable frequency response differences by, for example, rolling tubes in your amp. You can quite easily see frequency responses of 2-3DB in various areas of the frequency range between different types of 211 tubes, for instance.
So tube rollers are not delusional.
I have absolutely no doubt you could do the same test with cables. And you will find measurable differences.
The reason I know this is I got so fed up with an objectivist I went to the bother of proving it publically on a forum. He was genuinely perplexed and couldn't understand it.
Test mics are better than ears in providing measurable, repeatable evidence. No surprises there.
Seriously, they are amazing. They are easily capable of showing repeatable frequency response differences by, for example, rolling tubes in your amp. You can quite easily see frequency responses of 2-3DB in various areas of the frequency range between different types of 211 tubes, for instance.
So tube rollers are not delusional.
I have absolutely no doubt you could do the same test with cables. And you will find measurable differences.
The reason I know this is I got so fed up with an objectivist I went to the bother of proving it publically on a forum. He was genuinely perplexed and couldn't understand it.
Test mics are better than ears in providing measurable, repeatable evidence. No surprises there.
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Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Justin,
Didn't test with a mic but found major sound impacts in my Conrad Johnson ET5 preamp when i tried different tubes.
My favorite to date is the EAT 6922 followed by the Telefunken NOS. The stock tube was very underwhelming.
Gordon
Didn't test with a mic but found major sound impacts in my Conrad Johnson ET5 preamp when i tried different tubes.
My favorite to date is the EAT 6922 followed by the Telefunken NOS. The stock tube was very underwhelming.
Gordon
User211
Well-known member
I seem to hear marked differences with speaker cables - more so than with interconnect. I am confident I could measure it.
The thing is, you can zoom in on an FR plot like there is no tomorrow. It is literally like using an electron microscope on the audio signal. If I can't see a measurable FR change I do NOT expect to be able to hear it.
Ethan is narking up the wrong tree I think. All that is needed is a few FR plots with different cables. The mic approach shows whether the end user is hearing a difference. If I had some alternative speaker cables to use I would do it. Well, that, and the fact I am performing some minor surgery on the Apogees at the mo to extract fractionally better performance.
The thing is, you can zoom in on an FR plot like there is no tomorrow. It is literally like using an electron microscope on the audio signal. If I can't see a measurable FR change I do NOT expect to be able to hear it.
Ethan is narking up the wrong tree I think. All that is needed is a few FR plots with different cables. The mic approach shows whether the end user is hearing a difference. If I had some alternative speaker cables to use I would do it. Well, that, and the fact I am performing some minor surgery on the Apogees at the mo to extract fractionally better performance.
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