Ego in high end audio...cont.

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And a closing note to Beat Dominator. I've also felt that my posts have been somewhat ignored but I have personally found your perspective / comments to be very insightful. Thank you.

GG


I think a lot of us have... I know I felt like a red-headed stepchild for a while :) Now I just post more technical stuff to get attention. (It's my form of a tantrum!)

Different venues definitely impart different sound...and an accurate reproduction would ideally recreate the environment as well as the music....because, well...music (live or recorded) is a combination of the two. Different sonic characteristics of systems can simulate different venues...but I, like JonFo, like to know that what I'm listening to is accurate to what I was meant to hear...if I don't like it, I need to get better recordings! :D
 
I think a lot of us have... I know I felt like a red-headed stepchild for a while :)

I think this is probably very common in a forum environment. If we don't get a lot of responses to our posts, we assume people don't care about what we write. But it is absolutely not true. I read and get something out of every post written on this forum. I don't necessarily agree with everything that's written, but I do enjoy getting different perspectives. I only respond to those posts that really pique my interest or when I feel I have something new or different to add to the discussion. But just because I don't respond to a post, don't think that I am not reading them and learning more about every individual that posts here. So please BeatDom and the rest of you guys, keep on postin' cause I read em and I appreciate your input on every topic.



I, like JonFo, like to know that what I'm listening to is accurate to what I was meant to hear...if I don't like it, I need to get better recordings! :D

I appreciate the idea that you want to listen to an accurate reproduction of the musical event that was recorded. And I agree that this is a goal for most of us with our systems. But I have a few problems with the ideas expressed above that accuracy and proper measurements are more important than one's own ear.

First, I am not convinced that just because one component has better measurements than another component that it is necessarily a more accurate reproducer of the musical signal. Perhaps this is a deficiency in our ability to measure all the things that matter (for instance, how do we "measure" synergy between components?).

Second, I have many recordings of great music by the original artists that just weren't recorded with audiophile quality. These recordings can sound great on some systems, but if the system is too detailed and "accurate" (as my Logan system is) they can sound like crap. Do I just trash all this great music because I only want to listen to "accurate" reproduction and this music sounds crappy when accurately reproduced? Of course not. What I personally want to listen to is great music that sounds great to my ears (whether or not it is technically an accurate reproduction). With well-recorded material, accuracy in reproduction is a fine goal. But with a lot of music, a less accurate but more musical sounding reproduction is called for.

Finally, I think "accurate reproduction of the original recording environment" is a myth as far as studio recordings go. Often different parts of a song or album are recorded in different studios, vocals are isolated in a vocal booth, and everything is mixed together by the engineers to achieve a particular sound according to that person's taste and objectives. Everything the mastering engineers do changes that sound slightly from the original performance. In this case you are not trying to reproduce the live event so much as you are trying to reproduce the engineer's conception of that event.

I am not saying that measurements don't have their place in putting together your system. I am just saying I would always trust my own ears and taste over measurements. If something sounds great to my ears, I would never say to myself that I couldn't live with that because my ears must be lying to me because the measurements tell me that it must not be accurate. When the technical aspects of the system and achieving absolute accuracy take precedence over the beauty and joy and personal enjoyment of listening to the music, something has gone very wrong in my opinion. As Roberto says, trust your ears.
 
First, I am not convinced that just because one component has better measurements than another component that it is necessarily a more accurate reproducer of the musical signal. Perhaps this is a deficiency in our ability to measure all the things that matter (for instance, how do we "measure" synergy between components?).
The concept of synergy between components is that the changes imparted by each component compliment each other (in the case of a system where accuracy is key...they cancel each other) Just because we can't identify what the measurable differences between systems that we enjoy differently are, doesn't mean they don't exist. If you listened to a TON of speakers, and came up with your favorite, it would be likely that something reproduced using similar technology(point source vs line source, etc.), and that measured similarly, would also likely be very pleasing to you.

I agree with you that your own satisfaction is the goal...but what I would say is that the best starting point to find what that is, is from as neutral as possible. you can then add or subtract from there to find what suits your taste. I do, however, think it's akin to saying, "I don't like the coloring of that painting" and then putting on rose-colored glasses so that it looks better to you. If that's what makes you happy, that's fine...but I don't think anyone would agree that the rose colored lens should be put over the painting. Neutral is the benchmark, from which all tastes vary.

Second, I have many recordings of great music by the original artists that just weren't recorded with audiophile quality. These recordings can sound great on some systems, but if the system is too detailed and "accurate" (as my Logan system is) they can sound like crap. Do I just trash all this great music because I only want to listen to "accurate" reproduction and this music sounds crappy when accurately reproduced? Of course not. What I personally want to listen to is great music that sounds great to my ears (whether or not it is technically an accurate reproduction). With well-recorded material, accuracy in reproduction is a fine goal. But with a lot of music, a less accurate but more musical sounding reproduction is called for.

Again, agreed...especially when you have recordings that have artifacts in a certain range that are not part of the music, but are added in recording/production. By minimizing that frequency range, you do enjoy more of the music...because there's less distracting noise. However, building a system around making bad recordings listenable seems like a bad premise to me. There are plenty of adjustments you can make to do that, after setting up a "neutral" system, to make those recordings more listenable, without sacrificing the quality on better recordings.


Finally, I think "accurate reproduction of the original recording environment" is a myth as far as studio recordings go. Often different parts of a song or album are recorded in different studios, vocals are isolated in a vocal booth, and everything is mixed together by the engineers to achieve a particular sound according to that person's taste and objectives. Everything the mastering engineers do changes that sound slightly from the original performance. In this case you are not trying to reproduce the live event so much as you are trying to reproduce the engineer's conception of that event.

Agreed...you don't want to reproduce the studio sound...cause there really isn't one...but again that's dealing with a subset of music. Reproducing concert calls and venues for live recordings is a big part of the difference for me, between low and high end speakers. Ones that do it poorly, I don't consider to be particularly impressive as transducers. Again, there are things to alter the signature of the sound, once you've found "neutral." For instance...if the recording was made from the back of the hall, and you like sitting nearer to the front, certain system changes can make that effect...but do you want to be stuck with that presentation for everything you listen to?


I am not saying that measurements don't have their place in putting together your system. I am just saying I would always trust my own ears and taste over measurements. If something sounds great to my ears, I would never say to myself that I couldn't live with that because my ears must be lying to me because the measurements tell me that it must not be accurate. When the technical aspects of the system and achieving absolute accuracy take precedence over the beauty and joy and personal enjoyment of listening to the music, something has gone very wrong in my opinion. As Roberto says, trust your ears.

There is a difference between accurate and good. Like in painting again...if you take a bad painting, and copy it exactly, it doesn't make it a good painting. You could possibly improve upon it, even...but what happens when you apply that same technique to a masterpiece? You lose the ability to view that masterpiece for what it is. Having something with the ability to be utterly neutral and transparent, gives you that choice. Having something that isn't, doesn't.

The aim of high end audio, in general, seems to be accurate reproduction, however...else, why would people be so concerned with having 2ch only systems with the fewest numbers of circuits/connections between the source and the speaker? Certainly not because they are looking for additional coloration!
 
I think the point is that any system will add distortion and since that is the case the even order second is preferable to the odd order third. Look back to the distortion spec wars of the late 70's and 80's. Distortion figures were going lower and lower (.0001 THD vs .000001 THD) but the gear sounded like s&%t. This was a case of a false measurement. On paper it was more accurate but in real life it sounded worse. Just listen to a Phase Linear versus an ARC or CJ tube amp from that time and I think you'll agree that measurements don't tell the entire tale.

I fully agree that measurements do not tell the tale! Unlike the author of http://zaphaudio.com , I am fully open to the prospect that there exist unknowns that we cannot yet obtain measurements for and quite possibly never will.... maybe everyone is looking in the wrong place. One only needs to look at a pre-1990 Stereophile to see that JA does not currently use many of the measurements that he once did to test speakers and amplifiers, and I would be willing to wager that he would have told you back then that his measurements "tell you EVERYTHING you would need to know" about a particular piece of equipment.

On the topic of ultra low noise...... well I thirst for Halcro and Spectral gear ;)
 
This thread reminds me of the days when I was a "young buck" reading the very early issues of TAS.

HP and the other writers at that time, had very compelling / thought provoking editorial pieces regarding the subjective judgment (what our ears hear) versus the objective criteria (how the particular hardware piece measured) and how these two very different ways of determining the "musicality" of a particular piece of hardware were / are oftentimes in conflict with each other. The premise of this discussion was inherently centered about the sound of reproduced music and how it compared to the sound of live / unamplified music, read "The Absolute Sound".

I will provide further personal insights / experiences to this thread in the near future. I wish to thank IWalker, Risabet, Beat Dominator, and Rich (whom I find provides comments that are very consistent with my personal perspectives) for your insights to what I consider to be the "nexus" of what we are all trying to achieve in our personal listening environments.

I'm going to end at this time with the following personal observation. Within the context of the TAS standard stated above, I've had the opportunity to listen to the CSO in Chicago, concerts at Davies Hall in San Francisco, and our concert summer series in Jackson, Wyoming. They were all sonically compelling but each venue has their own unique sonic signature.

Thank you gentlemen. I am glad that this forum affords us the opportunity to discuss what I consider to be the "core" issue of our wonderful hobby.

And a closing note to Beat Dominator. I've also felt that my posts have been somewhat ignored but I have personally found your perspective / comments to be very insightful. Thank you.

GG

You touch on one of the common complaints out there, no one listens to live sound anymore :( Quite a sad thing. I listen to a lot of live rock/jazz in my studio recording classes. I want to make it to some orchestral music event but I never take the time!!


On the topic of recording...... Imagine if every person buying $40,000 speakers and amplifiers could team up and create a SUPER record label that could sign all of the top artists and have a very strict policy regarding recording quality. I bet we wouldn't need $40,000 speakers anymore to get amazing sound in our homes ;)
 
That's also oversimplification. You can't just test distortion, because it doesn't tell the whole picture. Amplifiers are a whole different ballgame than speakers as well...considering that the amount of distortion let off by all but the worst of amps is inaudible. There's no benefit going from .01% to %00001%. There are other very real measurements that can be done that can predict performance however.

With speakers, harmonic distortion tells you much more, because the levels of distortion are much more audible, but it's far from being the only important measurement. CSD graphs can tell you a lot, as do linear distortion graphs, and multi-tone distortion graphs (which actually tell you a lot more about how a speaker performs than single tone tests generally do)

Things like high Le or high MMS (depending on your personal philosophy) can make a driver sound "slower" and less responsive...yet that won't show up on the harmonic distortion graphs.

Just because one measurement doesn't tell you much, doesn't mean the right measurements can't! Audiologists can even take measurements of your hearing ability that can give you a much better idea of what you're listening preference might be. Ears are your most important component! :D

I think we're going at this from the wrong direction...There are lots of good components with different performance tradeoffs...and if you have to live with tradeoffs, than each person will have a choice of which tradeoffs they prefer. That does not suggest, however...that all drivers are equal. Some are clearly better designed and built than others, and have far fewer tradeoffs than others. Measurements can tell you which drivers fit into this lineup...and you can judge the merits of each driver within that subgroup by using your ears.

"Exciting" systems are often ones with extra high frequency artifacts...due to distortion...that extra high energy makes it sound more "involving." Potato, Potato I guess (doesn't work as well when you type it)
 
Why?

The hardware guy wants the most expensive with the deepest bass and the most extended treble. The music guys gives up some of those things for the midrange magic of real instruments playing in real spaces.

I just can't get my head around WHY one must necessarily sacrifice one kind of result for another. If a speaker (as the last link in the system chain) launches a sound wave into the room that is a faithful replication of what's on the recorded medium, it should sound like real music UNLESS:

a. The room itself alters the response AFTER the sound leaves the speaker, or
b. The recording/mixing engineer didn't accurately get the performance onto the medium, or
c. The performance space itself (e.g. studio, open air concert, club) affected the response to a degree that seriously degraded the performance (i.e. if you were THERE, you wouldn't have liked what you heard LIVE either ;--)

Excepting these three caveats, it seems to me that accurate reproduction should RE-create reality? I think RCA called it Living Presence.
 
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I just can't get my head around WHY one must necessarily sacrifice one kind of result for another. If a speaker (as the last chain in a system) launches a sound wave into the room that is a faithful replication of what's on the recorded medium, it should sound like real music UNLESS:

a. The room itself alters the response AFTER the sound leaves the speaker, or
b. The recording/mixing engineer didn't accurately get the performance onto the medium, or
c. The performance space itself (e.g. studio, open air concert, club) affected the response to a degree that seriously degraded the performance (i.e. if you were THERE, you wouldn't have liked what you heard live either ;--)

Excepting these three caveats, it seems to me that accurate reproduction should RE-create reality? I think RCA called it Living Presence.

Loudspeakers are a compromise due to the nature of sound reproduction. One of the finest speakers out there IMO is the Quad 2905 (others will differ) and reproduces the vast majority of the sound that reaches it in a most convincing, accurate manner but it misses the lowest octave (I would guess good to about 40Hz), as do most speakers. This is simply a limitation of the design. A planar radiator of moderate size can't do 20 Hz and you shouldn't expect it to. It is limited in volume level and dynamic impact but within its operating parameters it is of a single voice. Vanishingly low distortion and amazing recreation of space the Quad still misses out on a fundamental aspect of the live performance. IME accuracy isn't enough, though I am hard pressed to say what is!

PS: RCA did "Living Stereo" and Mercury did "Living Presence" both able to recreate a credible facsimile of the real thing through the right system, interestingly they don't measure all that good in comparison to say, RBCD but they sonically beat it out IMO.
 
Risabet, all well and good, but that still doesn't answer my question: why can't one system do both?
 
Risabet, all well and good, but that still doesn't answer my question: why can't one system do both?

I wouldn't say that one system can't do both, but I would say that it is rare to put together a complete system that has perfectly sweet extended highs, liquid magical midrange to die for, and deep, taut, powerful bass, along with pace, rythym and dynamics, all when played at realistic "live music" volume levels. Most systems excel in certain areas and are slightly deficient in others. It is just the nature of the beast.

But with a lot of work and trial & error, you can get pretty close to that ideal of sonic nirvana. And just when you think you are there, you will have a friend over who will listen to your system and say: "That sounds like crap. My system sounds much better." ;)

By the way, I just wanted to say that I am really enjoying this discussion and appreciate everyone's input. Ultimately, I think we agree a lot more than we disagree but it is an interesting discussion to have.
 
I am a Solid-state kind of guy. SETs CAN measure well, but I could not live with a poor-measuring component because I would feel that I would just be lying to myself if I said it sounded terrific.

so you're saying that if you like the sound of x component, but it measures poorly, you couldn't live with it???:think:
 
Risabet, all well and good, but that still doesn't answer my question: why can't one system do both?

I believe one system can, electronics being the easy part IMO,do both. The limiting part is the speaker. The problem becomes, in my mind, expense and size. The Quad 2905 cost $11500 a pair and can't do low bass, The Kharma Midi Exquisite, by all reports (haven't heard them) are incredible but cost $45000 and can't do the low bass either.

The best all around I've heard are Wilson Alexandria X-2s, $125k a pr. and actually approach the dynamic contrast of live symphonic music like few others I've heard. They are big and ridiculously expensive as are many other SOTA speakers. The big Apogee's, the Scintilla, were pretty damned good but they were 1 ohm, blew up amps like crazy and were really big. heavy and needed to be a mile out into the room. This will rile some here but the
Summit, though really good, isn't a SOTA speaker IMO.

The DIY crowd can probably work around the cost constraints but size is a requirement for low bass and especially bass dynamics, materials can be expensive, difficult to machine and not all of us have the necessary skill set (steep learning curve) to be successful DIYers though for SOTA at affordable prices that is probably the way to go.
 
Risabet, why does the "main" speaker have to do the very low bass? What's the matter with adding a sub(s)? Wilson makes subs to go with their main speaker systems, so even they recognize the need for additional bass extension to have a truly "full range" speaker system, right?
 
I believe one system can, electronics being the easy part IMO,do both. The limiting part is the speaker. The problem becomes, in my mind, expense and size. ....
The DIY crowd can probably work around the cost constraints but size is a requirement for low bass and especially bass dynamics, materials can be expensive, difficult to machine and not all of us have the necessary skill set (steep learning curve) to be successful DIYers though for SOTA at affordable prices that is probably the way to go.

Yep, no substitute for displacement when it comes to SPL capabilities.

A small speaker can be very satisfying in the near-field at moderate SPL, but will fail to maintain its power curve trying to energize a large room with listener in the far-field.

To effectively do that, it requires two things IMHO:

- Line source speakers

These broadcast a deeper 'near-field', with power decreasing at half the rate of a point source device. This is one reason why ML's are such amazing speakers.

- Large displacement low-frequency speaker
Which is why a DIY infinite baffle is the champ of value and performance for the low-end. These things can be built to displace multiples of what a commercial sealed sub can do (even big ones).

The other part of dynamics that is overlooked in building systems is a consistent power curve. Many people just measure frequency response at a low to moderate level and say: there, system is done, good FR, no problem. But when the system is pushed to deliver even moderately loud passages, the power curve is compressed (typically bass and mid-bass suffers). Or the curve becomes very ragged with big spikes in areas where driver resonances dominate.
My experience building the mid-bass line array has convinced me that a true reference speaker must have line source behavior down to 100hz at SPL’s up to 105 dB. Very, very few commercial speakers have this characteristic.
Given that, no surprise I wound up having to build it myself.

My next step is to indeed built companion Line arrays for my Sequel panels (replicating what my center does), and promote that combo to be my fronts, and demote the Monoliths to rear channel duties.

At that point (and with some front end streamlining), I should be close to ultimate performance (for this room) ;-)
 
One of the tough things about this is hearing loss.

Everyone once they get into their 30s starts some sort of hearing loss from what I know.

So IWalker could just love a setup or pair of speakers that I wouldn't because (in theory) I couldn't hear frequencies he does (or vice versa).

Arguments over speakers just seems pointless. No two rooms or two ears are the same (and as I see it those are the biggest variables in this whole thing).
 
so you're saying that if you like the sound of x component, but it measures poorly, you couldn't live with it???:think:

Haha pretty much. I'll try to think of an analogy to this opinion of mine.... can't seem to think of one right now :devil:
 
Haha pretty much. I'll try to think of an analogy to this opinion of mine.... can't seem to think of one right now :devil:

well ya know. it's not that crazy:D There are some of us out there that have to like the looks of the equipment, before they can settle down to listen.. of course that could be because the wife wouldn't let you settle down to listen unless it looks good in her LR.:D
 
Risabet, why does the "main" speaker have to do the very low bass? What's the matter with adding a sub(s)? Wilson makes subs to go with their main speaker systems, so even they recognize the need for additional bass extension to have a truly "full range" speaker system, right?

It doesn't but adding a sub, which I use, adds both complexity, cost and takes up space, which are all issues in getting a realistic recreation of music in the home. Subs do add to maximum volume levels, impact, and of course extension but integration is more difficult and, unless done with a large amount of fiddling and tweaking, can seriously impact the transparency of the satellites.

So added expense, complexity, and size become issues that I would like to see ameliorated with an all in one solution at an affordable price.
 
It doesn't but adding a sub, which I use, adds both complexity, cost and takes up space, which are all issues in getting a realistic recreation of music in the home. Subs do add to maximum volume levels, impact, and of course extension but integration is more difficult and, unless done with a large amount of fiddling and tweaking, can seriously impact the transparency of the satellites.

So added expense, complexity, and size become issues that I would like to see ameliorated with an all in one solution at an affordable price.

BOSE? :devil:
 
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