cls setup

[mikesinger]

just got my cls iia's up and running with new panels from ml (great customer service).

couple questions in regards to setup ( i have a 21 by 21 dedicated room)

-which panel is the right panel and which one is the left ?

-speaker placement (is equilateral triangle the best ?)

-toe in

-how far to place speakers from the wall

-where to place descent sub

any other suggestions ?

thanks !!!

mike

 

[tubevibb]

Need Old panels for CLS

I well pay $200.help pay for new if thay still work for old panels, i have a new mod an i need old panels too test,
thanks i am in Tampabay Fl

 

[rhd1953]

Left & Right info and 1/3 positioning

I would love to have a room 21' by 21'!!!!
I couldn't find my CLS IIa manuals, but found the an excerpt below:
"Each set is actually a mirror-imaged pair. The left- and right-hand vertical sections of each speaker are of different widths. The manual suggests setting them up with the wider outside section toward the side walls of the room, but goes on to say that this is not mandatory."
The above is from an article by Jack English on the CLS IIA in Dec 1991, half way though, at:
http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/reviews/stereophile_cls.htm

The ML homepage also has a download pdf of the CLS IIz manual:
http://www.us.martinlogan.com/literature/manuals_historic.html

For setup/positioning try placing the CLS's 7' from the back wall, about 6'-10' apart, and with your listening position 7' in front of the CLS's. See my long/narrow room setup in 1993. Since you have no sidewall concerns you can space for best sound stage! I currently don't toe in (with a wider room, now). Try no toe in and listen to a variety of music...how the microphones were positioned when the music was recorded may make toe-in required (if you're really really dedicated).

I find the speakers disappear, when properly positioned with good electronics/recordings, so the CLS's aren't 'in your face'. Many times I've been intently reading while listening to the CLS's and suddenly noticed an aspect of a song I never noticed before! And this is at very low listening levels! Listening to compilations of various artists will make the different 'sound stages' very obvious too.

 

[Tj Bassi]

Whoa....nice tape setup!

Tj

 

[Bernard]

I would love to have a room 21' by 21'!!!!...........

Equal dimensions are not good. But I would not turn it down to replace my 16' by 12' room.

 

[longhorn]

How is the bass with a full panel? I just wandering what is the benefit of having a stat reproduce bass.

 

[nsgarch]

Equal dimensions are not good. But I would not turn it down to replace my 16' by 12' room.

I agree. Well, here's how I've done it over the last 17 years:

Backwall clearance:
1. 5'(min.) to 7'
2. or 1/3 the distance into the room
either way is OK, it just depends on furniture/room layout. (My current room is 12x24. The speakers are in front of a freestanding bookshelf that's 8' from the back wall) click on system link

L/R spacing: No toe-in to start with, and 2' between the (inner) edges of the frames. Choose a listening position distance from the speakers. It has to be no less than 7' for CLS's (nearfield listening), but you have to do this (choose the listening position) in order to proceed.

Slowly move the speakers apart (symetrically) by moving each speaker 8" . Continue until an obvious "hole" appears in the soundstage. note: use large orchestra for this, not a solo vocalist. When the 'hole' appears, move the panels back together by 8" each until the soundstage re-establishes itself.

Toe-in: It does matter that the wider of the two bass sections of each panel be to the outside -- otherwise it's impossible to achieve correct toe-in (which really has to do with focusing/aiming the midrange section), Next, get a strong flashlight or laser pointer. Sit in the listening position and hold the light next to your face at eye height (left side for left panel, etc.) and point it at the panel. Note where on the panel (mylar) the reflected highlight occurs. Then begin toeing-in the panel in using the same spike (inner or outer) for both L and R panels. (Don't use the spike under the electronics box to pivot the speaker, it's off center!) until the highlight falls about 3 or 4 inches to the outside of the inside vertical spar (this is the way Jim Powers does it.) You may need to make some tiny adjustments after that, to each speaker equally, but before you get into that:

It is absolutely critical the speakers match exactly tilt-wise (with zero tilt being preferable,) but whatever, they should match exactly. The best way to do this is to use a 2 foot to 4 foot long carpenters level placed vertically at the center of the center-section of the stator, adjusting the rear spike until both speakers are the same. Then, adjust the left/right tilt by placing the level along either edge of the wood frame and adjusting the left/right spikes until the speaker is vertical.

As far as I'm concerned the best place for a single sub is smack between the panels and set to a phase angle of 90 degrees (see my system) and a roll-off at 35Hz. Do not high pass the panels! Let them roll off naturally.

 

[mikesinger]

thanks for the tips.. i really appreciate it.

the panels are still in the process of breaking in but it sounds promising..

will post pics soon.

 

[audioxcel]

I use a corner bubble level (such as is used to set fence posts) at the edges of the panels. This makes it possible to adjust for front - back and left - right leveling. Check on both edges of each speaker to confirm since the edges can be slightly out of parallel.

I have found that absolutely no toe in gives the best sound staging. I use strings to check for toe in. It is a bit time consuming but in the end worth it. Place a finishing nail (X) in the floor exactly in the center of the sweet spot seat where you head is when you sit (gotta move that furniture) or directly in front of the sweet spot. Slide a small metal washer over the nail (X). Tie two stings (A and B) to the washer.

Place a nail (Y) at the exact point that you select for the outer front corner of one speaker (considering distance from the side and rear walls). Slide two small washers over nail (Y). Tie each of the two strings (A and B) to one of the two washers. You now have two strings (A and B) with a washer on each end that are exactly equal in length.

Now, decide how far apart you wish the outer edges of the speakers to be and tie a third string (C) of this length (plus a bit extra for a knot) to to one of the washers that is on the nail (Y) that was used to locate the outer front corner of the first speaker. Tie a washer to the other end of this string (C). Slip the washer attached to string (B) off of the nail. Lay the two loose washers one on top of the other and slide a nail (Z) through them.

Move toward the point where you expect nail (Z) to be placed. When strings (B) and (C) are both fully extended, hammer nail (Z) in place. You now have a perfect equilateral triangle with a base (C) that is flat (straight) relative to nail (X).

Position your speakers on string (C). Voila, absolutely no toe in. You can double check this by repeating the process with the inner front corner of the speakers.

NOTE: This can be done with two strings (A or B and C) instead of three but I like to see the triangle to confirm that nothing has been bumped out of place. It is importnat that the string not be a type that is easily stretched. I usually use light gauge (20 or 18 Ga) speaker wire instead of string for this reason.

Anal? Yes. Worth it? Absolutely! And, you only have to do it once unless you move your system.

 

[jtwrace]

Anal? Yes. Worth it? Absolutely! And, you only have to do it once unless you move your system.

I just can't resist. This line is great!!!!

She still won't go for it....

 

[audioxcel]

I just can't resist. This line is great!!!!

She still won't go for it....[/QUOTE

You are a sick and twisted individual.... See instructions for toe out set-up. : )

 

[gouldglen]

I just purchased a pair of CLS (the original). I have a room about 21x 12. I havent started fussn with them yet. I do have them out close to 5 feet from the rear wall. They are about 1 ft from the side walls. i gave them a slight toe in. i am curious about why some of you think no toe in produces better imaging. wouldnt that depend on the width of the room. Also coming from my spica tc 50s which had superb imaging and soundstage i dont get the feeling that the CLS images the same way. what kind of music do you suggest for trying to "lock in all the good stuff " In general i think it sounds fairly good so far. What are the key things to notice when they are positioned optimally? i used to own these speakers many years ago so this is my second go around with them. they do have a lot of strengths and they seem to be a very good match with my rebuilt counterpoint NP220 amp.

 

[nsgarch]

My room is 12' wide also (see system pics) but you will need 2' to the side walls. See my other comments in #7.

 

[audioxcel]

I just purchased a pair of CLS (the original). I have a room about 21x 12. I havent started fussn with them yet. I do have them out close to 5 feet from the rear wall. They are about 1 ft from the side walls. i gave them a slight toe in. i am curious about why some of you think no toe in produces better imaging. wouldnt that depend on the width of the room. Also coming from my spica tc 50s which had superb imaging and soundstage i dont get the feeling that the CLS images the same way. what kind of music do you suggest for trying to "lock in all the good stuff " In general i think it sounds fairly good so far. What are the key things to notice when they are positioned optimally? i used to own these speakers many years ago so this is my second go around with them. they do have a lot of strengths and they seem to be a very good match with my rebuilt counterpoint NP220 amp.

What works well with a point source speaker won't necessarily work well with a large dipole speaker. Backwave / side reflections and the subsequent cancellations can wreak havoc on the imaging of a dipole. All I know is that I have tried various toe in settings and found that when I used the perfect set-up with no toe in everything came together like magic.

You have a task ahead of you though because of the proximity to the side walls. I think you are going to have to give up some room length and go for a nearfield listening position. This will reduce the arrival time of reflections and make them closer to the front wave's arrival. Bringing the two closer in time will enhance imaging if you can't eliminate the reflections. You may also want to try some room treatments to breakup or absorb the reflections.

I use a few recordings that I have had for years and are my "reference" recordings. I use them for all comparisons of new components, cables, tubes, tweaks, etc. I know them so well and when something is right I can literally feel it. It is like a sense of relaxation that surpasses just hearing.

A good symphony recording of something you like is a good reference because the instruments are acoustic and you probably know how they should sound. I use a recording of the Philadelphia Orchestra / Eugene Ormandy conducting Sibelius' Finlandia.

I also use a couple of vocal recordings that you may or may not have heard of. Amanda McBroom "Dreaming" and Jennifer Warnes "Famous Blue Raincoat". Both of these have some good songs that have spacial and tonal ques in them.

Piano is a good instrument to listen to; does the keyboard sound like it is in the same place as the music is played or does it seem to move back and forth in space?

I don't listen too long to any song though because the ability to remember gets difficult if too much is being compared and the space between comparisons is too long. This is where having a piece of a recording ingrained in your nervous system is a good thing to develop. I will listen to the same passage 5 or even ten times to get a good sense of it before I change anything around.

Once I have a feeling that one set up is better than another, I will listen to more music to see if it still feels right. Then I will go back to the previous set-up and repeat the process if the two seemed close.

Also, I never try to do too much in one session because fatigue can cause a lack of awareness. I usually play around for an hour or so then just kick back and enjoy the music. The perfect set-up can wait for a few more hours or another day. It is better to take a week of short sessions to make the set-up than to try to do it all in one day.

 

[gouldglen]

Thanxx Much audio excel. I think currently i am about 11 ft from the speakers. also i was under the impression that dipoles were much less sensitive to side walls? Can u clarify your piano comments further. You have me intrigued. i play piano for a living so.....

 

[audioxcel]

Thanxx Much audio excel. I think currently i am about 11 ft from the speakers. also i was under the impression that dipoles were much less sensitive to side walls? Can u clarify your piano comments further. You have me intrigued. i play piano for a living so.....

The best room I have ever had my M-Ls in was 18' x 26'. This allowed me to get the speakers far enough from all walls to reduce any side reflections. If you think about most auditioning room at stores, the speakers never 1' from the side walls. The rooms are big and the speakers are set well into the room. This is why some people are disappointed when they get their speakers home and listen to them.

On a close mic recording of a piano, there is a sense of the direction of the keyboard (strings actually). If the imaging of your system is correct, you should be able to get a visual impression of the direction (angle) that the piano is facing relative to the microphones. Once you have an image of the angle of the keyboard listen to high, mid and low notes / chords. The image should remain solid in space as the piano is played. If the angle seems to change with frequency you have a problem with reflections. This is because higher frequencies reflect differently than lower frequencies due to the wave length.

Since you play piano this might be useful to you because you are keenly aware of the sound of a piano. Listening to solo piano, vocal music where the vocalist is playing the piano, or small ensemble music (jazz quartet e.g) where the piano is near the front could help you to decided when imaging, timber and tone of your system is correct. You will feel it.

Orchestral music is useful because if everything is correct you should be able to get a sense of the layering of the instruments and at the same time clearly be able to localize a first and second violins, bassoon, oboe, kettle drum, triangle and so forth. These will move around as you position your speakers and treat room reflections.

You should feel a "sense of relaxation" when everything is where it belongs. If you are actually listening to music (any kind of music) for the pleasure of listening to the beauty of music, (not just background or loud rock music) you will feel uneasy when the soundstage, timber and tone are not as they should be.

On the other hand, YMMV, I only actually know what I experience. :music:

You should also try "nsgarsch"s recommendation for spacing between the speakers. I don't think this is going to be a factor for you though because of the width of your room. You are not likely to get the speakers far enough apart to find a "hole" between them.

And remember, that vertical alignment is very, very important. I would not even attempt it without some kind of leveling device.