Buy new or old technology?

[Wardsweb]

Please bear with me here, as I have not kept up with Gayle's technology changes. Do you feel something like a Prodigy or the new Summit have a better sound for 2-channel audio and why?

 

[twich54]

The 'new' technology has taken some of the guesswork out of proper amp matching for the bass drivers since the Summitt's are built in and are in theory designed and matched to the repective drivers. With that being said one of the 'knocks' on the previous generation (Prodigy's) of M/L Hybrids was not the smoothest of driver integration. But I would bet the owners of Prodigy's that have taken the time to properly pick and set-up their upstream components couldn't be happier !

 

[aliveatfive]

My Summits sound considerably better than my previous ML reference, Ascent is. Granted they were not Prodigies, but the quality of the sound was not altogether different from them.

 

[stesom]

I have always admired ML speakers but until the Summits came out never have I felt a need to buy ML speakers. The Summits have changed that for me and I am a very happy owner........Steve

 

[Wardsweb]

What kind of power (tube/SS/watts) are you guys running with the Summits?

 

[aliveatfive]

What kind of power (tube/SS/watts) are you guys running with the Summits?

I am using ARC tubes all the way: Ref 3 for a preamp, Ref 110 for a power amp. Plenty of volume and dynamic range with this pairing. Don't forget, in the Summits, the woofers are already powered.

 

[Joey_V]

I have always admired ML speakers but until the Summits came out never have I felt a need to buy ML speakers. The Summits have changed that for me and I am a very happy owner........Steve

Until the MAXX2....

 

[stesom]

Until the MAXX2....

You know I have a problem man with Upgradeitis don't make me relaps

I am using a tube cd player and pre-amp with beefee SS mono-blocks. The Summits can take as much power as you throw at them. They will produce very clean high DBs when the music requires it. But they will work very well with any high quality amp that can handle low impedences or is transformer coupled such as the REF-110 mentioned above (Great amp by the way)

I know the subs are powered, but these speakers can take very high power if you are looking to reproduce music at realistic concert levels without distortion and stress. Also these speakers slope down in impedence as the frequencies go up all the way down to 1 ohm. So the more stable and powerful the amp the better it will control the speaker as opposed to the speaker pushing around the amp........Steve

 

[kcl]

I'm driving my summits with a Sunfire TGP-5 pre and a Sunfire TGA-7400 amp. I'm very happy with the results.

 

[discocarp]

My summits are powered with a Krell KAV-2250.

 

[tonyc]

My Summits are driven by a Rowland 8T.

 

[nsgarch]

Whither da watts?

I know the subs are powered, but these speakers can take very high power if you are looking to reproduce music at realistic concert levels without distortion and stress. Also these speakers slope down in impedence as the frequencies go up all the way down to 1 ohm. So the more stable and powerful the amp the better it will control the speaker as opposed to the speaker pushing around the amp........Steve

Actually Steve, what electostatic panels need as the ohms fall, is not power (wattage) but current. Since voltage = current x resistance, you can see that as the resistance goes down, the current goes up if the voltage remains the same (which it does with stats.)

Power or watts = current x voltage. So, from the first formula, voltage/resistance =current. Now, if you multiply both sides of the equation by voltage (a constant) you get: voltage(squared)/resistance = watts. Now you can see that as the resistance goes down on the left side of the equation, the watts go up on the right side. But dont' forget that "watts" is a product of volts times current, and with stats, "volts" remains pretty much a constant. SO, the amp is called upon to produce more and more current as the speaker's impedance drops, because the speaker can't do anything with more voltage, even if the amp was able to deliver it.

Most (high powered) SS amps can deliver tons of voltage to a cone speaker, (high watts,) but do so at modest current (great for woofers ) But many high powered SS amps actually "crap out" with stats because they can't deliver high current to a speaker (like a stat) that doesn't really want voltage making up that high wattage, it wants current making up that high wattage!

Tube amps (in general) can deliver high current with no problem, so long as you don't ask them to deliver high voltage along with it. That's why one can often get the same volume (dB) out of a stat with a lower powered (wattage) tube amp vs. a higher powered SS amp; also that's the reason you sometimes hear people say, "tube amps deliver more power for their size (wattage) then SS amps." Not so!! Watts is Watts! It's what goes into (or more accurately, what comes out of) those watts that determines the amp's performance with a various loudspeaker designs.

I've seen (heard ) ML speakers, even Soundlabs, driven to quite loud, distortion-free levels with modest 25 - 50 watt tube amps having high current capability. And this is all in addition to the fact that tube amps preserve the subtle nuances of music** that stats are such champs at reproducing.

** It's OK solid state amp owners, I'm wearing my raincoat! :bowdown:

 

[stesom]

Thanks for taking my non-tech explanation and making it scientifically sane. I meant what you said, but did not say it well. That is why a strong SS amp that can generally double down into lower impedances will not be unhappy with the ML panels. On the other hand, if a SS amp is unhappy below 4 ohms than current will fall off and you will loose equivalent watts.

I also said that Tube amps will work well if transformer coupled; since it isolates the amp from the speakers impedance swings, in that the speaker now looks like a stable fixed load to the amp. Heck, I am not in the SS camp or bust. There are a lot of great amps out there SS and Tube. Such as the ARC Ref-110 and Mono 210s which drive the Summits beautifully.

I only mentioned it since I tried to use Atma-Sphere MA1 mk2v3 with them without a zeroformer and the whole top end was missing. The OTL amp could not deliver the current into such a low impedance…….Thanks for your insight…….Steve

 

[tonyc]

Wardsweb, I know you are a bottlehead so the newer Mls might be more to your liking since they are a bit more likely to be tube friendly. Several folks have reported great results on Vantages and Summits with modestly powerful tube amps. At least one person spoke favorably of Cary SET's on a pair of Summits. Just my opinion.

 

[Wardsweb]

Thanks guys, I think the Summits will be better suited for some moderate power tube amps. If not, I can always throw the Carver Silver 7t's on them and rock the world.

 

[akm3]

I've owned Aerius and Vista and the "new" technology was way better then the old one. Although I'll admit the Aerius sound had a special charm that I really enjoyed, but it is obvious the Vista sounds "better'.

-Allen

 

[roberto]

New tech is more friendly use...

Hola. With the new sensitivity of the new tech, allows you the benefit to use a wide and more good sounding goods with low power. Before, you needed a lot of power to drive the MLs, now you don't. I am very happy with a 30W/ch power amp that drives my Vantage as good as big power amps...as a general rule, small amps sounds better than the big brothers...are usually warmer and more musical...this does not means that out there are monsters that drives ML stuff with outstanding sound and results.
I do like better the new tech, because they are more dynamic, smaller in size, with better overall dispersion vertical and horizontal, and easer to set them up...it is just my experience with them...happy listening,
Roberto.

 

[twich54]

Actually Steve, what electostatic panels need as the ohms fall, is not power (wattage) but current. I've seen (heard ) ML speakers, even Soundlabs, driven to quite loud, distortion-free levels with modest 25 - 50 watt tube amps having high current capability. And this is all in addition to the fact that tube amps preserve the subtle nuances of music** that stats are such champs at reproducing.

** It's OK solid state amp owners, I'm wearing my raincoat! :bowdown:

No raincoat needed, point well taken ! As an addendum to your explanation another point to be made is that the ESL panel presents a capacitive load, whereby power is stored but not dissapated in the speaker, and is eventually kicked back to the amps output stage. So not only is current a key factor in our amp selection, but the supreme stability of the current along with the amps power dissipation are to be taken into account, regardless of it being SS or tubes !!

For more info on this, get your hands on the Jan issue of TAS and see Dick Olsher's sidebar in his Vista review.