amey01
Well-known member
Yes, I know. Very true. One must ask also though - why is he replacing with an NAD when he could get a Sony or a Pioneer for a fraction of the cost.........all amps sound the same and all.......
Amp question.
- Thread starter ML Goat
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Yes, I know. Very true. One must ask also though - why is he replacing with an NAD when he could get a Sony or a Pioneer for a fraction of the cost.........all amps sound the same and all.......
Here are my thoughts on this.... I have heard many amps - I have directly A/B'd them as well. Differences are heard at low listening levels... and I think those differences are really about system synergy...what you can hear...sonic signature of the amp... Here are my opinions on several amps:
Sunfire: warm/smooth/big
Bryston: detailed/layered/powerful
Mac solid state: warm/bit more detail
Prima Luna: round/warm/bass defintely sounds different because of the tubes.
Rotel: seemed kind of flat to me - compared directly to Sunfire
Most AVRs that I have heard: a bit thin/not quite as full as any of the above (not to say there aren't good ones ...I just haven't heard them)
ARC solid state: seems very neutral to me...very layered soundstage.
This might vary from model to model -- but I am betting that we could all (or most of us making other points statistically irrelevant) probably come to some type of close analogy among us if in fact you have heard the models etc...
Personally, with my experience (I am not claiming a lot here...) .. I have yet to hear a jaw dropping...OMG...difference with an amp. Differences yes... presentation - yes... more preference than good vs bad if you will... But, I am suspecting that there are amps that would do that for me... I either just haven't heard them or don't have the wallet. The system synergy is going to determine what sounds the best for a particular amp. Some systems may need more detail... others may need warmth....some folks shoot for total neutrality...some speakers are so difficult to drive the amp could also become unstable...so another amp might be more suitable.
I never heard real differences in Pre-amps... but here was my experience:
Carver Pre to Sunfire Pre ... to me really sounded very close... I am not sure if I could have told the difference if I was blind folded...
Carver/Sunfire/Yamaha AVR used as a pre: again to me not anything that I am sure I could have told you ... hey that one is WAY worth it...
Then I got a Cary Slp98p pre-amp and my jaw literally hit the floor!!! The difference was staggering...soundstage deep and wide ...texture...blahblahblah...
So, my point is - just because you haven't heard differences -- don't jump to the conclusion that there ARE no differences in amps/pre-amps. People are not telling lies to justify their expenditures. As you see in my examples above - I had several amps and several pre-amps sound similar...others sounding different. I had not heard a different sounding pre-amp - up until several years ago... But, I did find it after 20+ years... and only then did I know what people were talking about when they were discussing the importance of the pre-amp in the chain. Amps are truly the same.
As far as your experience with Emotiva and your AVR -- again, maybe from a sonic signature standpoint - the two are close... I am pretty sure you bought it without hearing it since they are online? I wouldn't expect a huge difference between an onkyo and the xpa-3...haven't heard them - but the xpa series is their cheaper amp isn't it? I would expect a slight difference...and probably a difference you might discern if you a/b'd things as roberto was suggesting.... Worth the money? Only for you to decide that...
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Hi timm,
Good observations. I have two separate systems, two channel and HT. Regarding AVR's for HT, I've always liked Denon. Not the last word (at least the models that I've owned) in many areas, but the midrange is quite satisfying, ample power, no fatigue, good adjustability options, and very good reliability. What else can you expect for $800?
Gordon
Good observations. I have two separate systems, two channel and HT. Regarding AVR's for HT, I've always liked Denon. Not the last word (at least the models that I've owned) in many areas, but the midrange is quite satisfying, ample power, no fatigue, good adjustability options, and very good reliability. What else can you expect for $800?
Gordon
I agree Gordon .. I like the Denon AVRs as well actually... I have had a lot of good experience with denon and reliability.... and when I say reliability ... I mean no problems for 30 years type of reliability....a cd player that still operates flawlessly... now is my old cd player with the analog outs (only) the last word on resolution?:.... no... but, I still like it.... and I have denon 5900 universal.... never had any issue with it.. for 9 years I think? My yamaha avr is completely flat and bland sounding compared to my sunfire / cary combo... no comparison whatsoever...
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
timm,
Sounds like you might want to sell your yammy.
Regarding preamps, I've been wanting to replace my CJ Premier 18LS preamp, mainly due to new technology, with the CJ ET5. The 18 still works flawlessly but I'm confident that the ET5 will be a major upgrade.
Only down side is the dreaded break in. Reported by many to be a minimum 300 to 500 hours due to the capacitors. UHG!
Gordon
Sounds like you might want to sell your yammy.
Regarding preamps, I've been wanting to replace my CJ Premier 18LS preamp, mainly due to new technology, with the CJ ET5. The 18 still works flawlessly but I'm confident that the ET5 will be a major upgrade.
Only down side is the dreaded break in. Reported by many to be a minimum 300 to 500 hours due to the capacitors. UHG!
Gordon
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That's not so bad, Gordon. You just have to leave it playing 24/7 for three weeks, and then you are good to go.
Pneumonic
Well-known member
I can’t speak well enough on how the brain/ear perceives audio things (which is why I posted what I did in post #55 in this thread) but, technically, an amp never deals with multiple tones. Music consists of thousands of frequency tones which all combine together to form 1 single voltage at a given period of time. As a result, no matter how complex the music and no matter how many frequencies are involved, the voltage at any given time will be a single value. It doesn’t matter if it’s asked to reproduce 1, or 2 or 1,000 or 1 million tones; the audio signal the amp deals with will only ever consist of 1 voltage at any given time. So, tying this into IMD (which I think is your point) ...... an amps nature to produce IMD will be the same regardless of how many frequencies are present (as long as there is more than 1 frequency present to cause modulation).
If there is just 1 test tone, then we measure total harmonic distortion. Practically speaking though, in all well designed amps, THD and IMD are essentially the same. That’s why engineers rarely bother to measure IMD as it can be easily deduced from the THD measurement.
Also note that in well designed amps, any simple/complex distortion patterns are mitigated to inaudible levels. Exceptions to this might be an amp which doesn’t employ any feedback; these amp designs very well could have audible levels of distortion and, therefore, might easily sound different from one another. If an amp is designed to produce audible levels of distortion then one could argue its design is questionable though, perhaps, not undesirable by some because they may enjoy the sound of said distortion. Thus we enter into the subjectivists versus objectivists argument.
Sorry, but: Complete and utterly nonsense! The music signal is not DC. It is a timevarying signal comprised of many different tones. If what you claim was true, our amps could not play, say, a chord, let alone music.
Lumping IMD and TDH into one single value is misleadong. Imagine two amps, both having 2% THD. One of them has only 2nd oreder, the other only 7th order. In your world they sound the same. Even worse: be extension of your logic, all instruments sound the same if they play the same note and has the same total amount of overtones. If you can't hear the difference between amps, fine. But don't tell the rest of us that we can't either. Thank you very much.
Pneumonic
Well-known member
IMD is an innate characteristic of amplifiers and has nothing to do with the audio signal, which remains a single voltage at any point in time.
Understand that when reproducing music, the frequency of the voltage will vary over time as will the amplitude of the voltage. No matter what, the amplifier will only have to reproduce a single voltage (which will vary in how quickly it changes) at any point in time.
BTW, I'm not attempting to tell people that they can't hear what they hear. I'm attempting to explain why, technically, the OP couldn't hear any difference when changing his amps.
Understand that when reproducing music, the frequency of the voltage will vary over time as will the amplitude of the voltage. No matter what, the amplifier will only have to reproduce a single voltage (which will vary in how quickly it changes) at any point in time.
BTW, I'm not attempting to tell people that they can't hear what they hear. I'm attempting to explain why, technically, the OP couldn't hear any difference when changing his amps.
Single voltage in time. Not single frequency. Try to fourier transform a time domain audio signal. This will give you the spectrum, and show you that many tones are present at the same time. Try to read this paper from Nelson Pass: https://passlabs.com/articles/audio-distortion-and-feedback
JordanD
Well-known member
Fourier Transforms FTW!
Pneumonic
Well-known member
Hello, check your PM please.
