CLX setup is critical

While I normally try not to read anyone else's reviews of a product we have in for review for obvious reasons, I did read the HiFi+ review to see what Roy Gregory had to say, because more often than not we've reached pretty similar conclusions about a lot of gear.

I really have to stress that if you get a pair of CLX's, that fine adjustment is extremely critical.

Now that mine have some hours on the clock, Harvey Gilbert from MartinLogan came over and we got the speakers really dialed in today. Making sure they have EXACTLY the same amount of rear wall distance, toe-in, rake and both speakers being level is essential to getting what this speaker is capable of.

Believe it or not, most of the difference is in the bass performance. If these speakers are off even a 1/2 inch to each other the bass performance suffers dramatically.

Get em lined up to within a 1/16th of an inch and you will be blown away!

If not, they sound pretty good, but nowhere near what they are capable of...

That is common with all Logan's. Especially CLS so I would imagine the CLX being the same ! Even more so !

I'll bet no more critical than your CLS...

But I do remember when I had mine (CLS) they did take the better part of an afternoon of fiddling to get em just right! Didn't have any help back then, so it always takes a little longer.

C.A.P said:

That is common with all Logan's. Especially CLS so I would imagine the CLX being the same ! Even more so !

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Yepper...the image all of sudden just snaps into place for depth, width, instrument placement, etc. - like taking a veil away. And I would agree with CAP, all ML's are like this, but I have found the CLS even more so.

This is exactly as I suspected. The pair I got to audition two weeks ago was not very well set up and I am sure did not represent what the CLX can actually do.

This is an ongoing problem with the ML dealers in my area, and I suspect in many other areas. The just don't know how to propely display and play the speakers. When I purchased my Summits I was at three different dealers and they all didn't have a clue how to set up an ESL. Consequently, they all sounded like do-do. Finally, I happened upon a salesman at Sound Advice (Tweeter) in Boca Raton who was a Summit owner himself and was willing to drag a pair from the room where they were and set up in to an empty high end room with a Krell integrated for a "private" audition. After hearing what they could really do, I purchased on the spot.

I doubt that is likely to happen with the CLX. Sound Advice is gone and the dealer where they are on display is kind of a "my way" guy so he would never let me experiment with repositioning the speakers.

I guess if I ever get serious enough to purchase a pair, I'll have to fly out to Portland and listen to yours Jeff!

As Jeff stated. They need every 1/64 of an inch to be dialed in. There was a gentleman on this site that described how he was adamant on the set up of his CLS. He used a string with an exactness that was no less than 1/32 of an inch. He would measure the string from the left edge to his left ear and right edge to his right ear in his sitting position. All the while making sure his rear tilt from top to bottom was exact. Checking things to be EXACT ! His reward was that last 1% that takes the system farther .

After reading that I was amazed and his diligence. It has made me neurotic to be as exact in my measurements as you can get. I have my chair feet tapped with front and back and center marks to always get it dead on. I have a actual height gage as to where my head should be in the seat.(crucial as we all slouch at times) I have my CLS within a 1/32 of all front wall and toe measurements. I have used a plumb bob and a level to make sure my panels are 90* dead on. I have left no room for error and the rewards have been twofold. I have set many a system up and this I can tell you ! It takes time and effort and a lot of patience. (Adult beverage's helps the patience) It will not happen overnight to get that last 1% out of it. (Thats the % that makes all the difference in the world too!) Hell sometimes I have actually stumbled upon it out of frustration or desperation ! Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then !:music:

I think I have a great idea for a thread topic!

C.A.P said:

His reward was that last 1% that takes the system farther .

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And he has to sit very, very still! There's no way I could sit that precisely.

MotorToad said:

And he has to sit very, very still! There's no way I could sit that precisely.

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Me neither! Measuring the speakers distance from the walls, yes. Precisely sitting in a frozen spot, no.

Man-O-man... and I thought I was anal !!!

MotorToad said:

And he has to sit very, very still! There's no way I could sit that precisely.

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No , vice needed. Its just that extra warmth !

slowGEEZR said:

Me neither! Measuring the speakers distance from the walls, yes. Precisely sitting in a frozen spot, no.

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Audio is not a active sport. Its a one seat affair. Show me a system that sounds good or should I say 1/2 as good as the hot seat ! If you want multi suround listen in 5.1 or better.

twich54 said:

Man-O-man... and I thought I was anal !!!

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In Jim Cary's lisp from The Cable Guy "Its the perfectionesth in me ,.......SSSST":ROFL:

Jeff,

So what did you settle on with your distances? How far is each corner of the back edge of your CLXs from the wall behind them? I assume that you have them turned slightly inward. How far are they apart, edge to edge and how far are they in from the edge of the side wall? Have you tried tilting them forward or backward? During my set up we tilted them both ways and the effects on the sound stage were amazing. Lastly, have you put the spikes on yet?:music:

Tape measure is back in the tool box, whew!

I'll have the final measurements in the upcoming review, but if memory serves me correctly, the inside corners are about 42 1/2 from the back walls, the outside corners about 45 1/2. Speakers are about 8 feet apart from inside corners and listening position is about 9 1/2 feet from speakers. Left-right, they are about 7 feet from the side walls.

The spikes are in place, however I think if I did not have a subwoofer, I'd leave them off to get a bit more midbass warmth, but that's just me...

Jeff,

I concur that precise measurements are required to optimize ML performance. Having owned four different models, all benefited from this level of anal attention.

Question for you. What's your experience with other speakers and the need for precise measurements to optimize performance? Are ML's more sensitive in this regard or is this generally true with other non planar models?

GG

Well, the Summit, Spire and Vantage were not quite as critical as the CLX. They certainly all benefitted from this level of attention, but the CLX really requires it.

I think most cone speakers are certainly better at just throwing them in the room to get adequate sound, but everything I've ever reviewed has always benefited from getting out the measuring tape (or the laser measuring device) and spending a couple of hours.

My experience has been that the more resolution a speaker (or a turntable for that matter) is capable of, the more it will benefit from careful setup.

tonepub said:

Well, the Summit, Spire and Vantage were not quite as critical as the CLX. They certainly all benefitted from this level of attention, but the CLX really requires it.

I think most cone speakers are certainly better at just throwing them in the room to get adequate sound, but everything I've ever reviewed has always benefited from getting out the measuring tape (or the laser measuring device) and spending a couple of hours.

My experience has been that the more resolution a speaker (or a turntable for that matter) is capable of, the more it will benefit from careful setup.

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Hola Jeff, as you might recall, there are so many different seats to choose, with just an inch of their position. Your seat moves very easy and you do not know where you want to be at the theatre, right?...same thing with the CLSs...every position gives you a different stage seat, and all are very musical with the right proportion with the size of the instruments and the air between them...mmmmmm, just choose the one that you liked most, but seems that all are linking spot, right? Sometimes you want to seat at front and sometimes you want to seat at the half of the room. Difficult decision. My liking, and not necessary yours, is to seat more at the front of the musicians, but having al clear position of all the musicians...third to fourth road at the teather is what I do like...and my CLSs provides to my that, and this is what keeps me listening all kind of music. This is just my way to listen, and of course, it is not necessary yours!...the thing is very controversial with liking and judjing which is the best for all of us. I have never listened the CLXs, but I do know they are far better than mine. I wish you a super happy listening,
Roberto.

roberto said:

Hola Jeff, as you might recall, there are so many different seats to choose, with just an inch of their position. Your seat moves very easy and you do not know where you want to be at the theatre, right?...same thing with the CLSs...every position gives you a different stage seat, and all are very musical with the right proportion with the size of the instruments and the air between them...mmmmmm, just choose the one that you liked most, but seems that all are linking spot, right? Sometimes you want to seat at front and sometimes you want to seat at the half of the room. Difficult decision. My liking, and not necessary yours, is to seat more at the front of the musicians, but having al clear position of all the musicians...third to fourth road at the teather is what I do like...and my CLSs provides to my that, and this is what keeps me listening all kind of music. This is just my way to listen, and of course, it is not necessary yours!...the thing is very controversial with liking and judjing which is the best for all of us. I have never listened the CLXs, but I do know they are far better than mine. I wish you a super happy listening,
Roberto.

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I guess I would have to disagree with your analysis here. At the theater or a live event, there is a much bigger soundfield. When listening to music on panel speakers in a room, there is pretty much one spot where the music is happening and that's it.

Maybe if you have Wilson X-2's in a 30 x 40 room, you have a few options, but not with a pair of panels.....

May be interesting, maybe not. Your measurements were some what close to mine. I was lucky enough to have a ML dealer come over to deliver and set up my CLXs. He brought along a helper and the three of us spent 3 hours setting up and dialing in the CLXs. Based on his CLX demo set-up and experimentation back at his shop we tried positioning the CLXs between 60 and 40 inches from the front wall behind them. We settled on 46 and 43 inches as the CLXs are toed in just a bit. This is within a half inch of your front CLX measurements. I could only give 2 feet on either side with 6 feet in between the speakers and oddly enough I am 9.5 feet in front of the CLXs and 10.5 feet in front of the Logos center channel. My ML Source speakers are 40 and 42 inches off the back wall as they two are toed in and they are 9 feet from the seating position. I have one seat that is a Chiropractic Chair, it slightly reclines and the back does not rise up above the shoulders so rear sound is not blocked. You do not listen to music in this format, you participate. Depending on the music, some times it will wear you out. Many times I have been startled almost to the point of falling out of the chair. That is not an exaggeration or a joke. Snapping into focus in not a term of art with CLXs it is a description of reality. :music:

tonepub said:

I guess I would have to disagree with your analysis here. At the theater or a live event, there is a much bigger soundfield. When listening to music on panel speakers in a room, there is pretty much one spot where the music is happening and that's it.

Maybe if you have Wilson X-2's in a 30 x 40 room, you have a few options, but not with a pair of panels.....

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It is O.K. Jeff, just do this...play any ML with the panels firing outside of your sweet spot, the stage is so far, that makes me think I am at the back of theater, really away of the stage...if I have the panels firing to my seat, I am almost at the first road of the theater, just in front of the stage...I have this in my room, with my CLSs. And moving then having one-third of the inside panel firing to my seat, makes me be at the 3 or 4 road of our National Theater, here in Costa Rica...very easy to listen live music every day! and super cheap too. Recently a was listening to Mr. Carlos Barbosa-Lima playing classical guitar totally unplugged. It was truly fun to listen him in my system on his DVD. Of course my system is not as the real thing is, but it is very fun. I truly like what I listen in my CLSs...with all their flaws and imperfections. We are getting closer, but live music is the best...listening through ML is second best...of course again, it is my liking...the fingering in a classical guitar is so easy with ML, also a piano. You can sense very easy the left hand, and how it moves over the fingerboard. But you are right!. Perhaps I am too fan of ML that I can believe I can get all these that easy. I apologize for my dare...happy listening,
Roberto.

All I get when I get out of the sweet spot of my speakers is rolled off highs and lack of image focus.

It's really not like listening to a live symphony at all and switching seats, sorry.