Martin Logan - Dull Sounding?

Over this past weekend I picked up a pair of used Quest Zs and got them hooked up on Saturday night/Sunday morning with a bit of placement playing around.

I have listened to them for roughly two days and asked my wife what she thought. She rarely has an opinion on sound changes when I make a change, which I do quite frequently. She commented that the "new" speakers seemed to sound better on classical/female vocals/older musich (which she would include Nora Jones, Frank Sinatra, Jazzy stuff - her definition not mine). She felt however that with Rock and popular (ie. new music) they do not sound as good.

Of course I inquired as to how they sounded different, but she could not put her finger on it or describe it more than as stated above.

Fortunately a friend who is pretty familiar with sound systems, loves music and is familiar with auditioning equipment was willing to sit down and listen as well.

He found that the Zs did well, but required the volume levels to be turned up quite high to "bring them to life". At my more normal listening volumes (that I am accustomed to), he found that they were dull. He found some areas that they excelled within, sound staging, focus, air and clarity, but lacked the excitement.

My listening has resulted in similar feelings, a bit of dullness to music that would normally (in my mind) generate a greater feeling of excitement and energy. This was dimished if I turned the volume up very high, a good amount higher (in perceived decibel levels than I am accustomed to listening).

This brings me to the point in which I am seeking feedback.

First, is this characteristic of the Martin Logan "house" sound?
Is this a sign that the panels need to be replaced?
Is this a typical placement issue?
Any comments or suggestions?

Background: my normal speakers are Wilson W/P 5.1s and my amp is Krell FPB 300C driven by a GNSC modded Opus 21 and controlled by a Aesthetix Calypso (Mullard M10 Gold Pin NOS tubes). Cabling various, a combo of Transparent and Stealth for IC, everything in balanced mode. My normal speaker cables (non biwired are Harmonic Tech Reference 9s) and am running a pair of Zu cables for the woofers as a completely separate run to bi-wire the Zs. My room is roughly 12/13 X 18/19 feet with a single slanted ceiling starting at about 12 feet angling down to about 8 feet. The room is fairly well treated.

Sounds to me like the panels could need replacing. I have experienced this with the Quests that I used to have when the panels needed replacement. What was happening to mine was that the panels had come down in level but the volume of the bass unit was unchanged. The sound had a bass heavy quality and did sound dull.

Try measuring the SPL of both speakers to see if one has dropped more in level than the other. If significantly different this would indicate that the panels were going.

The Quests shouldn't sound dull at all and they do Pop/Rock pretty well in my experience. They are a great speaker.

Yeah... My first guess is that those panels are roached. Call ML for new ones.

~VDR

This is exactly what I am trying to determine, is it the panels or the speakers sound in general? The bass is not as punchy as I am used to, but it does goes fairly deep. I don't get a strong impression of speed with the panels, which is what ML are pretty darn good at, from what I can tell. Again, recall that I am comparing these to Wilson speakers, which are quite fast, detailed, and many would say overly lively and forward (which I have not experienced - ie. overly forward, bright, etc. . .)

Are the ML supposed to perform equally at more moderate listening levels or do I need to really crank them up everytime I want good performance/music?

I gave some advice on your last thread BEFORE you got the Quests.

1) They will NEVER sound as punchy and dynamic as the Wilson's, probably because they don't suffer from the overshoot that all dynamics speakers suffer from, to a greater or lesser extent.

2) If those panels have never been changed, replace them immediately. As I said, and as said above, if one channel is louder, it's a sureish sign. If they are over ten years old, I personally would change them by default. I always change earlier than that - by necessity!

3) MLs are fast because the diaphram mass is so low compared to a cone based speaker. However, this does not mean they sound fast, just that they are "fast" at tracking the input signal.

4) If you want MLs to sound "FAST", then a cheap and nasty solid state amp should manage that. Just remember to put your hands over your ears first!

Remember you have two totally different beasts in you home - they WILL sound quite different.

Justin

User211, and I appreciate that feedback. I have no imbalance between the panels, at least not audibly. I will try to perform a test with a sound pressure meter and a test signal to determine if there is a non-room based imbalance by measuring at 1 meter from the panels (I suspect this is the best way to avoid room issues that may affect sound levels by 1-2 db(A)).

Can MLs play well at lower listening volumes or do they loose their magic when played more moderately?

Some people have stated that for ML speakers to really sing, you need to play them at levels that most wouldn't consider to be very 'quiet.' But this is highly subjective and it also depends on the room. A live room probably won't require a lot of volume to fill it up.

You have many, many things to tinker with to get these speakers to work for you. If you are dealing with 10+ year old panels, you will likely have to go through the trouble of replacing them and then breaking the new ones in.

Also - you can consider vacuuming the panels and/or actually washing them. Do a search to look the relevant threads.

If you want more dynamics, more punch, etc - then consider a beefy solid state amp or even getting several amps, one dedicated to each speaker.

Room treatments, if you can afford them, can have a significant impact on your experience as well as speaker toe in/out, listening position, etc. Some of us even try tilting the speakers forward/backward as well. Depending on the model, speaker spikes can help improve the bass quality. Or, you can place the speakers on stands and see how that works.

Really, all of the above will have some marked impact. It could be one, or all of the aforementioned factors that lead you to where you want to go.

Erik

The Quest's can be as detailed as any speaker. They may need new panels. I don't know I haven't heard them. I'm close enough to drive and listen if you need a ear that has had new rebuilt Quest's. As for the details and the amp. TUBES are not the answer. Your Krell will sound great with them if they are set up right. I know I ran the same amp. IIRC ,you run a Resolution Opus 21 player modded by GNS . I have not heard this player but talked to Steve Huntly about it. I was tempted to buy one. Don't give up yet ! For the price you paid , I would have been suspect of the panels from the get go. The good thing is they can sound as good as new.

CAP, I am planning on getting in touch with you later today to discuss on the phone. I want to especially discuss your statement of helping to install the panels. I just don't want to jump to the conclusion that new panels will answer all of my questions and concerns about the sound. You have been the most helpful individual I have come across in any forum and commend you for your kindness and knowledge and sharing that knowledge as it is clearly displayed throughout this very helpful website.

Erik, Thanks. As far as room treatments go, I think I am pretty good in this area, at least based on past experience. While I have some home made panels that are designed to sit behind these speakers (for rear dampening), I have not used them based on my set-up as I have heavy curtains behind these speakers and sound dampening in the corners. I do not feel that I am too alive from behind. Placement may still require some additional tweeking and I have not yet installed either the feet or the spikes to try tilting the speakers yet (trying to better pinpoint positioned before doing this). I also have a pair of granite slabs that I can place the speakers on, but same as above with the spikes for the time being.

As for a beefy enough amp, I find it hard to believe that the Krell FPB 300-C at 300 WPC all class A with plenty of current at 8 ohms and double that to 600 watts at 4 ohms should be sufficient for these speakers.

I will change out the tubes in my preamp tonight to a pair that of tubes that is a little less warm sounding to see what affect that has.

In the end though, I think I need to try the new panels to really determine if these speakers are for me. I am concerned I am test driving a performance car with snow tires and therefore cannot get the proper impression of the capabilities and performance.

CAP knows his stuff and can definitely help you out. Remember, the Qz's were produced until '96, so if the panels were never changed (most likely scenario) then they are at least 12 years and possibly up to 15 years old. This alone doesn't mean they are bad, but if they weren't kept in the best environment (too much humidity, dust, and/or smoke) or weren't properly maintained (i.e. panels vacuumed once a month or so) then chances are pretty good that they are much in need of replacement.

Since volume "brings them to life" but they sound dull at normal listening levels, I would say that they do need new panels. This definitely sounds like the mylar has accumulated too much crap on it over time and is now heavier than it should be. Your Krell amp should drive them just fine and they should sound great at normal listening levels. My Ascents sound great whether the volume is very low, normal, or cranked. Same with my Summits.

Good luck with it.

"As for a beefy enough amp, I find it hard to believe that the Krell FPB 300-C at 300 WPC all class A with plenty of current at 8 ohms and double that to 600 watts at 4 ohms should be sufficient for these speakers."

100% giveaway. Buy some new panels. One of the things I thought once my first set of panels went - I need more power. Not so.

The break-in thing once you have some is a dubious debate over the "engineering" need for it over the mind-thing. I think both have some merit. Though I times I fall in favour of one over the other. Depends on the day really!

Some excellent advice by others above. Some of the members here really do know what they are talking about.

Justin

Hola...perhaps this might help a little too. All the panel should produce sound and as clear as spring watter. Highs and mids should be listenen all over the panel surface. If you find a particular spot where this does not happens, you need new panels for sure. Happy listening,
Roberto.

re: dynamics

As mentioned, the panels may be aging a bit. Another consideration is that you might want to try a sub. When I auditioned Ascents, they sounded wonderfully clear and precise, but lacked punch. Even a single Depth sub was enough to change the characteristics of the sound substantially. While retaining their clarity, the overall sound developed more bite.

If you have a local ML dealer, see if they'll loan you a Depth or Descent. Other subs are probably suitable too, and many members here use REL and others, I just like to stick in the same family.

Note, many purists think that adding a sub to a two-channel system is sacrilege. I go by what I hear.

I own a set of re-quests, which are very similar to quest z. I can tell you they are very dynmaic and GREAT for rock and really any kind of music. You need to be careful about your sources and amps, they are VERY transparent, some cables and amp did not sound very good (I am using AQ midnight dual runs, and alpha core micro/purl ic's). The key with amps is not power (my 125 w CJ amp drives them fine) but current, and stability down to 1.5 ohms - not something every amp - even beefy ones can have trouble.

What you should do is just try driving the esl panel, how does it sound, if it sounds somewhat better than the pannels output is low compared to bass- and the bass is overpowering.

It may be also your placement that is effecting things.

I biamp with a CJ sa250 on the ESL, and a parasound HCA1000 on the bass. It works excellent as the hca1000 has individual gain trim-pots so I can taylor the bass to my preference and room.

Before you order new panels - if you determine that output is low try cleaning with canned air and or the shower method (do a search). Its worth a try.

Ipaudio2, I shower almost everyday (there are some Sundays that I miss) and don't see how my cleanliness has anything to do with the sound. JK- I think I am fine with the Krell which can drive a 1.5 ohm load (and the Z's are supposed to have a more stable load than the standard Quests anyway). Also, the amp has gobs of current. Thank you for you input.

Steve, I have a REL Storm III, but am not using it for 2-channel. Though I do plan to play around with it with these speakers and think your idea is good, but I don't think this will address the problem with the dull sound. I think the panels need replacing.

Thanks for all your support on this site, it really is a great resource and the people here are very helpful. I am hoping to work something out with CAP as he has a set of new panels and lives only about an hour away.

Hopefully with the new panels I will feel compelled to go the Logan way in lieu of the Wilson way. We will see, but to determine this I feel I can only come to this conclussion if I get these speakers working properly, which I don't believe they are.