To summit or not to summit, that is the question...

Hi there,

I'm quite happy with my current setup, which is composed of -

- Front - Clarities powered by Harman Kardon Signature 1.5 (200 watts per channel)
- Center & Surround - Cinema i & Frescoes powered by Harman Kardon Signature 1.3 (150 watts per channel)
- Sub - Grotto, powered by Grotto!

My room is about 290 sq ft large.


I enjoy quite much the homogeneity of the system, where all components are matching with each other. My only reservation would concern the sweet spot, which is really narrow...

I come now to the point... I have the possibility to get Summits at an interesting price - though it still represents quite a substantial investment for my budget - which could then replace the Clarities on the front scene...

And this is a dilemma. On one hand, this is a unique opportunity. On the other hand, I'm very much afraid that the harmony of my setup might be affected, in several ways -

- will the HKS 1.5 be enough to drive such speakers?
- will it be consistent - or if you prefer balanced - with the other speakers, when I listen to SACDs or watch movies?
- is my room big enough to accomodate Summits? I might have to position them in the middle of the room is I want to get enough space with the rear wall...

What do you think? Should I seize this opportunity... or just continue with what I have?

Thanks in advance for your advice...

Can you arrange for an in home audition?

This is the most prudent way to decide on any new purchase with, of course, a money back option. Your room should be fine, size wise, if the dimensions are around 15' by 20' and you don't have furnishings that interfere with the radiation pattern of the speakers. The power output of your amp should also be ample given the powered drivers in the Summit and the panel efficiency. If you buy, you may find that you don't need the sub given the low end capability of the Summits. And, if that is the case, you can sell your front speakers and the sub to help offset the price of the Summits. Could be a win - win.

Having owned the Summits for a year now, I, like many others in this wonderful forum that are lucky enough to have these speakers, will tell you it's a decision you won't regret assuming you have the appropriate equipment, cables, setup, ect. that will allow these speakers to perform at their optimum.

I just saw that a pair of used Summits sold on Audiogon for $7,100. If you can get them at that price or below, and they don't work for you, you can always sell them. Only question, given your location, would be shipping costs.

GG

Thanks for your reply, Gordon....

Gordon Gray said:

This is the most prudent way to decide on any new purchase with, of course, a money back option.

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Actually the speakers are in Dubai, and I live in Abu Dhabi, which makes around 100 miles of distance between them and my setup...

Difficult to organize, but I can try...

Gordon Gray said:

Your room should be fine, size wise, if the dimensions are around 15' by 20' and you don't have furnishings that interfere with the radiation pattern of the speakers.

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My room is smaller, something like 12' x 14'. I inserted at the bottom of my post somewhat old pictures of it - actually I've organized it around the system requirements more than I tried to insert the system in an existing decoration. So I guess it should match your point concerning furniture.

Gordon Gray said:

The power output of your amp should also be ample given the powered drivers in the Summit and the panel efficiency. If you buy, you may find that you don't need the sub given the low end capability of the Summits. And, if that is the case, you can sell your front speakers and the sub to help offset the price of the Summits. Could be a win - win.

Click to expand...

OK for the power requirements.

Trading in the Clarities is part of the deal. I've had a look at Martin Logan site, and I think you get a point to try to include the Grotto in the discussion...

Gordon Gray said:

Having owned the Summits for a year now, I, like many others in this wonderful forum that are lucky enough to have these speakers, will tell you it's a decision you won't regret assuming you have the appropriate equipment, cables, setup, ect. that will allow these speakers to perform at their optimum.

Click to expand...

My weakest point concerns CD source, which I should purchase instead of relying of the Denon DVD A1 XVA (a very good machine for all formats but CDs). For the rest, I'm quite happy with what I have.

Gordon Gray said:

I just saw that a pair of used Summits sold on Audiogon for $7,100. If you can get them at that price or below, and they don't work for you, you can always sell them. Only question, given your location, would be shipping costs.

Click to expand...

Including the Clarities trade in, I should get them for $ 5,500. Now you understand why I was speaking about a unique opportunity!! And the Summits have been hardly used, and I know they have been carefully used.

So what REALLY is the size of your room ?? You stated 290 sq ft and then 12x14 (168 sq ft) If it's the latter, Summitt's offer only a little advantage over the lesser priced Vantage's, but given the $$$ deal you have cookin for the Summitt's, then I say go for it !!

Go for it! Try for an audition.

:rocker: Pat,

The pictures help alot. Looks to me like you've got a room that will work reasonably well with the Summits. If you are getting a trade in, sounds like you are buying thru a high end audio store. If you are only talking 100 miles and assuming you can do 90kph, it's only a total of 2 hours one way.

Ask your dealer to meet you half way for the pick up and ask for a minimum 3 days, as in over a long weekend. My only concern is the amount of time the Summits have on them. My experience, which others have verified, is that they do take quite a bit of time to break in. 100 hours minimum to have a good sense of the way they will sound.

GG

I think it would be foolish to put a $10,000 pair of speakers with a mid price A/V reciever. I think you would be better off putting your money into a pair of Vantages and taking the excess money and looking for a pre/amp upgrade. Just one mans two cents. Your room size is fine for the speakers. The Summits are not that room fussy.

twich54 said:

So what REALLY is the size of your room ?? You stated 290 sq ft and then 12x14 (168 sq ft)

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Sorry...

My reference measurements are according to the metric system, and each time I have to handle feet and inches, I get confused... The latter is correct.

twich54 said:

If it's the latter, Summitt's offer only a little advantage over the lesser priced Vantage's, but given the $$$ deal you have cookin for the Summitt's, then I say go for it !!

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Thanks for the advice... Anyway, I shall not remain in the U.A.E. for long now, which is also why I try to get as much as I can from here - back home in Europe, prices are much, much higher for ML products...

Gordon Gray said:

The pictures help alot. Looks to me like you've got a room that will work reasonably well with the Summits.

Click to expand...

Thanks.

Gordon Gray said:

If you are getting a trade in, sounds like you are buying thru a high end audio store. If you are only talking 100 miles and assuming you can do 90kph, it's only a total of 2 hours one way.

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Yep, you've got it. The deal is with a shop, and the Summits were in their auditorium...

1.5 hours only for the drive -speed limit is 120 km/h and radars are set at 140...

Gordon Gray said:

My only concern is the amount of time the Summits have on them. My experience, which others have verified, is that they do take quite a bit of time to break in. 100 hours minimum to have a good sense of the way they will sound.

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Considering the fact they were in an auditorium, I guess that they have more than 100 hours of use in their history...

Diamonds said:

I think it would be foolish to put a $10,000 pair of speakers with a mid price A/V reciever. I think you would be better off putting your money into a pair of Vantages and taking the excess money and looking for a pre/amp upgrade. Just one mans two cents. Your room size is fine for the speakers. The Summits are not that room fussy.

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The price is an indicator, but not in my opinion a decisive criteria. You have to listen to a H/K Signature system before deciding of its real value! It's too bad that Harman Kardon has decided to stop its High End products, they were absolutely awesome...

Diamonds said:

I think it would be foolish to put a $10,000 pair of speakers with a mid price A/V reciever. I think you would be better off putting your money into a pair of Vantages and taking the excess money and looking for a pre/amp upgrade. Just one mans two cents. Your room size is fine for the speakers. The Summits are not that room fussy.

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I agree with D. You can say that the HK Sig is great, but until you have speakers at the caliber of the Summit or above, a great pre and amp is what you need to truly bring out the best of said speakers.

I think it is prudent for you to go for Vantages and then move up to a 2ch amp and preamp just for the Vantages and music listening... you can still keep the HK for movies.

Joey_V said:

I agree with D. You can say that the HK Sig is great, but until you have speakers at the caliber of the Summit or above, a great pre and amp is what you need to truly bring out the best of said speakers.

I think it is prudent for you to go for Vantages and then move up to a 2ch amp and preamp just for the Vantages and music listening... you can still keep the HK for movies.

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It looks from your pictures that you're not using the H/K any more - is that corrrect? What amplification will you have for these proposed Summits?

Joey_V said:

I think it is prudent for you to go for Vantages and then move up to a 2ch amp and preamp just for the Vantages and music listening... you can still keep the HK for movies.

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The offer concerns the Summits only... So my choice is quite simple - keep my Clarities or switch to the Summits.

amey01 said:

It looks from your pictures that you're not using the H/K any more - is that corrrect? What amplification will you have for these proposed Summits?

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Still I am. The analog 7.1 preamp H/K Signature 1.0 is in the middle - below the Cinema i, surrounded on the left by the H/K Signature 1.3 and on the right by a H/K Signature 1.5 that has replaced the other 1.3 I owned, and shown on the picture.

pat17 said:

My weakest point concerns CD source, which I should purchase instead of relying of the Denon DVD A1 XVA (a very good machine for all formats but CDs).

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Pat17,

I think the Denon A1XVA player is superb for CDs and SACDs as well as video. In the US, it is known as the Denon 5910. You could do a lot worse with dedicated CD players for the same price. Check out the various reviews.

Ben

pat17 said:

The offer concerns the Summits only... So my choice is quite simple - keep my Clarities or switch to the Summits.

Click to expand...

I dont think it has to be totally black and white like that.... I still say that Vantage + a true 2ch preamp and amp just for 2ch listening is better than getting the Summits and simply swapping the Clarities for them.

And this is coming from the guy who upgraded to the Summits prematurely.

Joey, I think what it means is that he can conveniently trade in the Clarities and pay $5.5k for the Summits. Or try to find Vantages and try to sell his Clarities.

We don't know how easy or hard that is. Both Abu Dhabi and Dubai have a not so small population of well to do oil company employees as well as employees of oil field service providers. One might assume that there should be a market, but really, what do we know about the local situation?

ralflar said:

Joey, I think what it means is that he can conveniently trade in the Clarities and pay $5.5k for the Summits. Or try to find Vantages and try to sell his Clarities.

We don't know how easy or hard that is. Both Abu Dhabi and Dubai have a not so small population of well to do oil company employees as well as employees of oil field service providers. One might assume that there should be a market, but really, what do we know about the local situation?

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You're absolutely right ralflar, it's basically a question of opportunity - you seize it or or not, but you can't much elaborate a different scenario around it.

The U.A.E. is a country of roughly 4 million souls, of which 80% are foreigners like I am. Audio is not a great market there, at least if we consider the kind of equipment we're speaking about on this forum.

As far as Martin Logan is more specifically concerned, there's one importer in Dubai which is also the distributor and sole retailer in the country... And the second hand market is basically a question of... opportunities as well, as there are not any organized channels of re-sale out there.

By the way, when I contacted the importer/distributor/dealer yesterday, he told me that the Summits would spend the week-end in a different purchaser's place for testing. I should be the next one... if the first one is not concluding the deal... I might have balanced too long a time in this case...

After spending last night geeking out over HD DVD... Tonight I focused on music and I still can not get over how well the summits sound... the stage they provide in 2 channel is nothing short of sonic nirvana.:meditate: I agree w/ everyone on the thread, you need to match the speakers w/ the right gear… but as speakers go… these are simply amazing.

If you haven't sampled Afro Celt Sound System... do so... their range and tempo challenge... and the summits 'sing'

benleeys said:

Pat17,

I think the Denon A1XVA player is superb for CDs and SACDs as well as video. In the US, it is known as the Denon 5910. You could do a lot worse with dedicated CD players for the same price. Check out the various reviews.

Ben

Click to expand...

I fully agree when it comes to DVDs Audio and Video, SACDs, but not when it comes to CDs... The fact is that I'm connected with CINCH output only as my pre amp is purely analogue, maybe it works better with a coax or optical signal?

Patrick,

From a multi channel point of view I would say this: the deal is 5.5k plus the 1.5 to 2k for used Clarities. 7 to 7.5k is still a lot of money. I also feel that the Summits are wasted in your system, if your prime interest is multi-channel and HT. It is a nicely balanced system and a room which looks both classy and comfy. I'd leave it like it is.

Seen from the two channel perspective, what are you waiting for? For about the same price as a new pair of Vantages you can get Summits without hassle. I'd do it. Then I'd get a dedicated two channel pre-amp with HT passthru, and worry about the power amps later.

ralflar said:

I'd do it. Then I'd get a dedicated two channel pre-amp with HT passthru, and worry about the power amps later.

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How would this work? Just thinking about the day should it ever come when I am using MBL power and need something to motivate the amps OTHER than the Rotel 1098 Pre/Pro, but would still want to use the same speakers in HT mode probably WITH the Rotel...

While the Claritys are just amazing speakers there is something to be said for being able to stand up and not have the sound field drop off a cliff.

But, Summits might be overkill. I haven't heard any MLs except the Clarity and my SL3s so I can't say for sure. Tweeter = teh suck and the Vistas they had there weren't even hooked up.

James,

The Signature 1.5 is already used for the front channels. It would be driven by the stereo pre-amp for 2 channel music. In HT mode the HT pre-/pro would drive, with the 2ch pre-amp in pass-through mode.