Montis vs Sanders Sound M10

Well guys I received cabinet woofer and this time it is good

I spent most of the night in setup so I did not get much time to listen but from the short time I spent on listening to music/movies... I got an announcement to ML owners... Start selling your ML gear and get some Sanders Sound... LOL

Just kidding... But let me tell you... these speakers sound AMAZING !!! WOW !!!

Let me write up a bit my experience... It's a bit late for me.. but I'll try not write up too much...
I have XTZ software that enables me to check frequency response and it also has RTA which I used to level match bass & midrange. In my case, I adjusted midrange about 7db's to level mach bass.
In my setup I have bass traps just in front corners and M10's are pretty much in front of bass traps. These traps are stacked 4 on each side. Each trap is about 2ft high... I experimented in removing traps... but I got a better bass response with them on. Since I would like to get reflection from back wall and not have bass traps do any absorption I may still experiment with them. I also have acoustic panels covering first reflection points... I may also remove them... but need time to do more testing.

For now I placed my 2 subs on the side of each M10 instead of looking for best sub placement... For now its a convenience. Before running Audyssey, I checked frequency response for M10, they look very good... except due to my room there was a suck out at 50 Hz but very good other than this.... bass was almost flat.

I ran Audyssey and re-checked frequency response. If I crossed my subs at 50Hz, the suck out was gone... and frequency was very good... don't remember ... maybe +/- 3db flat to 250Hz. If i removed subs in setup up... Frequency was bad... I think below 80Hz... curve was way down.... I think it is related to Audyssey... because I turned off Audyssey and frequency was back good except for suckout at 50Hz. Maybe if I re-ran Audyssey and indicated that I had no subs... it may resolve the suckout @ 50Hz... dunno.

I did not get much time to listen to music/movies... but I was trying the dilemma of going with or without subs... With subs... I set crossover @50Hz and for No subs... I manually set no subs and turned off Audyssey in my prepro... There was a slight difference in movies... but it was not that noticeable... I do need to spend some more time... Then I checked movies... again not that much time... Watched the beginning scenes of Star Trek Into Darkness... In this scene enterprise is getting bombarded with bombs... Here, I did feel some some difference with my subs active.... I did not get the same with just the M10. It was not dramatic difference but I felt there was a difference. Again need more time to test.

Now... when I was listening to music or movies... either the dialogue in movies or music... I gotta say... WOW !!! Actually, I do have a center that I deactivated... When I was watching the movie... It was sooo good... Although I deactivated in pre-pro setup... I had to manually removed speaker cables just to make sure... I know how my center channel sounds... but removed speaker cables just in case... I don't know what to say... It was so clear transparent... ufff

After auditioning several speakers I was set on Montis... It did leave an impression on me.... I could not compare M10 with Montis because when I listened to Montis it was on a different location, different setup...etc etc.... But I can say that these M10 has given me a bigger impression....

Well, it's past my bed time... but gotta say... very happy with these speakers

granted, this is a Martin Logan forum but ………………..

:ttiwwp:

twich54 said:

granted, this is a Martin Logan forum but ………………..

:ttiwwp:

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Yes, I know this is a ML forum... I couldn't resist my comment Apologies... I suppose I'm overly excited

On a side note... In regards to the difference in bass with and without subs... For music I almost preferred no subs... and for movies I preferred subs... but just remembered that I'm using my XPA5 for bass driver... and my opinion may change with a different amp for bass driver... I may switch and use Magtech amp for bass driver just to test how much different it may be.

Also, there was a dramatic difference between sitting in sweet spot vs sitting to side... I do need to remove my bass traps and see if sound improves for seat to the left of MLP.

Hola. Me, for an instance, I do not like at all the Sanders sound. To my ears, its like having a pancake thick. There is not depth and also, in some bass notes, I get an exaggeration or resonances that makes the bass too big, and that I could not take them off. The size of the instruments appears to be a little forwards on certain instruments musical notes, that spoils the stage. This happens in certain sax solos, where you can listen that easy. Also, the female voice is somewhat not too as precise as I get from the Montis...So, sound its a matter of liking. If the liking is only one, the stores will be closed. I am glad that you could resolve the sound problems that I did find, off of them. Happy listening!

roberto said:

Hola. Me, for an instance, I do not like at all the Sanders sound. To my ears, its like having a pancake thick. There is not depth and also, in some bass notes, I get an exaggeration or resonances that makes the bass too big, and that I could not take them off. The size of the instruments appears to be a little forwards on certain instruments musical notes, that spoils the stage. This happens in certain sax solos, where you can listen that easy. Also, the female voice is somewhat not too as precise as I get from the Montis...So, sound its a matter of liking. If the liking is only one, the stores will be closed. I am glad that you could resolve the sound problems that I did find, off of them. Happy listening!

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Well, I don't consider my self an audiophile at all... I suppose, sound is a matter of preferrence and each to his own opinion

Exactly, when your ears start to get these differences, then you will know of what I am talking about. But, sound its like food. Perhaps you like onions and garlic, or hot spicy food, others might not. Enjoy your new sound! Its another electrostatic option. Happy listening!

spike99 said:

Yes, I know this is a ML forum... I couldn't resist my comment Apologies... I suppose I'm overly excited

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spike, no apology needed, heck I was only giving you a ribbing for not posting pictures of these new puppies …………..lets see 'em !!

twich54 said:

spike, no apology needed, heck I was only giving you a ribbing for not posting pictures of these new puppies …………..lets see 'em !!

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I will post some pics tonight...

This is my personal opinion...please understand my position and if you find it rude, my apologies.

When your ears had learned all these differences, you can be an audiophile. To my ears, making a comparison between the Montis and the M-10, its unfair. But all quality sound its matter of liking. I am not saying that the Sanders is a bad speaker. What I am saying is that with the Montis, there are a lot of easy adjustments capability to make them to sing easy at any room. You can match the bass intensity notes, very easy, due to their +- 10dB adjustment at 100Hz. Also, I do like the curvilinear shape of the ML electrostatic products. This shape, the spread pattern of the sound waves are more even, and allows you to have a very stable stage. The stage there, and all the musician(s) will be playing for you there...at the stage, and not next to you on some musical notes. Voices are projected as they should. No glare, not sored throats, no mess with the violin vs a viola. At the piano, you can distinguish what the left hand is doing vs the right hand. And the size of the instruments on the Montis are very, very précised. Again, everything its a matter of liking. Sound is like food, what I do like, not necessary have to be your liking and vice versa.

Enjoy your new speakers, their are an up-front of many others on the market place. Happy listening!

roberto said:

This is my personal opinion...please understand my position and if you find it rude, my apologies.

When your ears had learned all these differences, you can be an audiophile. To my ears, making a comparison between the Montis and the M-10, its unfair. But all quality sound its matter of liking. I am not saying that the Sanders is a bad speaker. What I am saying is that with the Montis, there are a lot of easy adjustments capability to make them to sing easy at any room. You can match the bass intensity notes, very easy, due to their +- 10dB adjustment at 100Hz. Also, I do like the curvilinear shape of the ML electrostatic products. This shape, the spread pattern of the sound waves are more even, and allows you to have a very stable stage. The stage there, and all the musician(s) will be playing for you there...at the stage, and not next to you on some musical notes. Voices are projected as they should. No glare, not sored throats, no mess with the violin vs a viola. At the piano, you can distinguish what the left hand is doing vs the right hand. And the size of the instruments on the Montis are very, very précised. Again, everything its a matter of liking. Sound is like food, what I do like, not necessary have to be your liking and vice versa.

Enjoy your new speakers, their are an up-front of many others on the market place. Happy listening!

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Hey, no apology necessary...
I am definitely not an audiophile and very much a noobie on that subject

By the way, I can match the gain for M10 between bass driver and ESL panel. To level match I used frequency response software XTZ...

Not being an audiophile I could not even start to describe sound the way you do... I could only attempt to describe them. But I had previously auditioned Montis... and at the time some sound seem to be coming from the ceiling... the M10 I did not get that... In some instances sound from left, right, center... forward, back... pretty much all around but not from ceiling... Heck there was some instances where I felt sound hitting my left and right ear separately.... very hard to describe... but I was very impressed... And I did not get the same feeling from Montis. Again... when I auditioned Montis (dealer in NYC), different place different music and different gear...

Again, like you said... it is a matter of liking

You have a rake adjustment at the feet of the Montis to exactly where you want the stage. With them is where you can adjust the precise stage at your room. Usually, what I choose is to be between the 4th and 7th rod of the theatre. Always try to use natural musical instruments, like a piano, Spanish guitar, strings, all of them, percussion, like drums and cymbals, and think in your mind, how the stage would be. Use at the beginning, not too many instruments, combo, jazz, recitals soloist, will do.

I am not saying that your new speakers are bad...I am just pointing out my findings vs the Montis. Believe or not, the Montis is one of the best products that ML had achieved. There are a lot of new implements in its design, that makes them a jewel to you, having a 24bit engine for the precise adjustment for the bass integration and the room boundaries.

I'm glad that your are very happy with your new speakers, but again, claiming that the model 10 is far better than the Montis model, I do not think so. You are not evaluating a lot of parameters than the crazy guys, like me, we do. But again, sound its a matter of liking!

Happy listening!

I never said M10 was better than Montis But after hearing M10... I prefer M10... I am much more impressed with M10 than when I auditioned the Montis

That's good for you! Enjoy your new speakers! Its good to find another enthusiastic of the electrostatic sound. Their transparency, and the low distortion is what really weight! Our toys are not cheap, and really worth every penny spent there. I wish to you, a very happy listening1

spike99 said:

... But I had previously auditioned Montis... and at the time some sound seem to be coming from the ceiling... the M10 I did not get that...

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Yep, that unwanted reflected energy from the ceiling is why I still prefer the Gen1 ML's, the CLX and Neolith, the Sanders and the big Soundlabs, as they all have perfectly vertical panels that do not engage vertical room reflections. Large ESLs are enough of a challenge to place and treat correctly for optimum sound, adding yet another dimension to the equation does not help.

timm said:

Jonfo. I know u had a bunch of sunfire. Tell me the diff between the sanders amps and sunfire. I have a signature grand. Thanks Tim

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Timm, still have a bevy of Sunfires along with the Sanders amp. Diff is pretty small in general, as the Sunfires are quite good, but the Sanders has the edge when driving the stat panel direct (remember I have no passives) and it seems to have better 'control' of the panel at higher volumes. My goal us to wind up with multiple Sanders amps, but as I say, the Sunfires are good enough that I'm not in any hurry.

spike99 said:

I never said M10 was better than Montis But after hearing M10... I prefer M10... I am much more impressed with M10 than when I auditioned the Montis

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Cool spike. Lets here more. I think the Maggie 20.7 sounds better than the montis. . But that is me. I love panel bass vs woofer bass.

JonFo said:

Timm, still have a bevy of Sunfires along with the Sanders amp. Diff is pretty small in general, as the Sunfires are quite good, but the Sanders has the edge when driving the stat panel direct (remember I have no passives) and it seems to have better 'control' of the panel at higher volumes. My goal us to wind up with multiple Sanders amps, but as I say, the Sunfires are good enough that I'm not in any hurry.

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Hey thanks for that. I have a signature and was wondering as I have heard very good things about the magtech. But sounds like it isn't a jaw dropping difference vs the sunfire. I know the sig version is quite beefier.

FYI,

I have attached a pic of my living room. I have some first reflection point panels... I don't think I need them anymore... Lets see how I re-purpose them...

roberto said:

That's good for you! Enjoy your new speakers! Its good to find another enthusiastic of the electrostatic sound. Their transparency, and the low distortion is what really weight! Our toys are not cheap, and really worth every penny spent there. I wish to you, a very happy listening1

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Yes, expensive
M10 system is almost double than if I had gone for Montis....
I do enjoy the transparency of electro stat....

spike99 said:

FYI,

I have attached a pic of my living room. I have some first reflection point panels... I don't think I need them anymore... Lets see how I re-purpose them...
View attachment 17956

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Have you tried to put the speakers where the subs are? Just do it, and tell us your findings...I am concern basically with the left side speaker. I had played with the M10b a little bit at a friend's system, and perhaps this way, you could get better stage...nothing costs, and you can go back to the previous position easy. Happy listening!