Montis vs Sanders Sound M10

Subs

spike99 said:

Yes, I feel the same way in that I may get better integration with Sanders bass driver... But I really have to test If I get same rumble from movies for me not to use my subs.... But I was thinking about possibly using listening mode named pure/direct for music available in my Integra pre-pro. This mode disables my subs... But doing this it also disables Audssey room correction... and then have a low cross over for movies... In my current setup I do prefer Audyssey engaged though...

I'm sure I will spend some time in dialing them in... But I'm not sure how much dialing I can do.... since my space is limited He did tell me about thinking outside the box regarding speaker placement...

Do you guys use subs with ML speakers ?

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Yes ! I use 2 depth subs one behind each summit crossed over at 30hz when I listen to music they hardly ever turn on just with heavy organ music. Watching action movies the subs always turn on.

khenegar said:

Yes ! I use 2 depth subs one behind each summit crossed over at 30hz when I listen to music they hardly ever turn on just with heavy organ music. Watching action movies the subs always turn on.

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How do you cross over @ 30hz ? My lowest cross over point on my Integra pre-pro is 40hz.

spike99 said:

Yes, I feel the same way in that I may get better integration with Sanders bass driver... But I really have to test If I get same rumble from movies for me not to use my subs.... But I was thinking about possibly using listening mode named pure/direct for music available in my Integra pre-pro. This mode disables my subs... But doing this it also disables Audssey room correction... and then have a low cross over for movies... In my current setup I do prefer Audyssey engaged though...

I'm sure I will spend some time in dialing them in... But I'm not sure how much dialing I can do.... since my space is limited He did tell me about thinking outside the box regarding speaker placement...

Do you guys use subs with ML speakers ?

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You will still want the subs for movies.

spike99 said:

I finally decided to take the plunge... I placed order and will go with Rogers M10d. A lot of $$, lets see how it goes... I think I will get it possibly on Friday...

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Congrats on making a very fine choice! I heard them for the first time last month at the AXPONA in Chicago. I was very impressed to say the least.
Probably one of the rooms in which I spent most time. The folks presenting it gave a good explanation of the package and how it works. My understanding is that the latest version uses an external digital crossover which handles time alignment and very sharp crossover slopes. The sweet spot was a bit limited i think but not too different from ML. it was very transparent to my ears, with outstandingly good and deep bass. The bass unit uses a true transmission line architecture so possibly that is a main factor for the accuracy of what i heard. I have ML-SL3s and MG 1.7s in different systems and only occasionally heard the Montis so i cannot compare it directly. In any case it has an unmistakeable ESL transparency to it. An added benefit, if i recall from my chat with the folks there, it is an easy speaker to disassemble in case of moving but didnt discuss details on this much. I think the X-over comes preprogrammed with custom curves and slopes and can serve as DAC as well. I think modifications (like clocking and analog parts) exist in the market for the crossover in case one wants to take it further.

Congrats!

digilog5, Do you know if they had the Model 10c or 10d on display ? I would assume 10d... since its the most recent. I wish I had the time to go to AXPONA... Would have been nice to listen to M10's and other speakers... Yes, it does come with a digital cross over which comes pre-programmed...

Sub

spike99 said:

How do you cross over @ 30hz ? My lowest cross over point on my Integra pre-pro is 40hz.

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I have a lexicon mc12v5 which i can select 30hz as a crossover point.

spike99 said:

digilog5, Do you know if they had the Model 10c or 10d on display ? I would assume 10d... since its the most recent. I wish I had the time to go to AXPONA... Would have been nice to listen to M10's and other speakers... Yes, it does come with a digital cross over which comes pre-programmed...

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Unfortunately I do not recall from top of my mind. I think I kept a bag with the Sanders system's brochure. I will look at it tonight if it shows the info.

Congrats, Spike on joining the Sanders ownership club and acquiring a speaker system that may well be your last.

spike99 said:

digilog5, Do you know if they had the Model 10c or 10d on display ? I would assume 10d... since its the most recent. I wish I had the time to go to AXPONA... Would have been nice to listen to M10's and other speakers... Yes, it does come with a digital cross over which comes pre-programmed...

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I checked the sheet from Axpona. It was indeed the 10d.

Interesting choice, well done and have fun evaluating it! It will be very interesting to see how good the bass performance is. I recently bought Velodyne DD12+ and it is one of the best upgrades I have done. Literally makes a fundamental improvement to bass quality and impact on all musical programme.
Should have listened to Dave earlier!!! Enjoy your journey.....

Pneumonic said:

Congrats, Spike on joining the Sanders ownership club and acquiring a speaker system that may well be your last.

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jeje, Yes... Made the investment and hoping these would be my last
I got panels today... will get rest of system tomorrow... Will be a busy weekend...

Hey, I just noticed your signature... Looks like you have the 10C's Nice...

spike99 said:

jeje, Yes... Made the investment and hoping these would be my last
I got panels today... will get rest of system tomorrow... Will be a busy weekend...

Hey, I just noticed your signature... Looks like you have the 10C's Nice...

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No doubt it will be a busy, and fun, weekend, Spike.

Next month will mark my 2 year anniversary with my 10c's. Long ways away from the 22 years I spent with (still loved and owned) CLSes but adding these 10c's have been a revelation. If you spend the time to get them setup right, they will reward you with stunning and spectacular performance results.

Speaking of setup. The speakers are very directional which favours setup some as they are not splattering waveforms all over the room. The DXO also doubles as a digital room correction device as you know. It can do some pretty neat things, in a sonically benign way, which should allow for less fussy room restrictions thanks to its ability to EQ midrange, midbass and deep bass to give you a pretty clean frequency response. If not, Behringer also has an accompanying product, called the DEQ2496 which, you could use in conjunction with the DCX 2496, to give you a fairly complete room correction solution.

If you have any questions I may be able to help so, ask away.

Enjoy

Pneumonic said:

No doubt it will be a busy, and fun, weekend, Spike.

Next month will mark my 2 year anniversary with my 10c's. Long ways away from the 22 years I spent with (still loved and owned) CLSes but adding these 10c's have been a revelation. If you spend the time to get them setup right, they will reward you with stunning and spectacular performance results.

Speaking of setup. The speakers are very directional which favours setup some as they are not splattering waveforms all over the room. The DXO also doubles as a digital room correction device as you know. It can do some pretty neat things, in a sonically benign way, which should allow for less fussy room restrictions thanks to its ability to EQ midrange, midbass and deep bass to give you a pretty clean frequency response. If not, Behringer also has an accompanying product, called the DEQ2496 which, you could use in conjunction with the DCX 2496, to give you a fairly complete room correction solution.

If you have any questions I may be able to help so, ask away.

Enjoy

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Hi Pneumonic,

Since you are offering I will ask away

First do you watch movies or just music on your system ?
The reason I ask, is because I don't see any subs on your signature... and as mentioned previously... Roger had suggested not to use any subs... Again I will be testing how it sounds with & without when watching movies.

Now if I decide to stay with my subs... Since they were expensive... I would prefer not to get rid of them... but on the up side... it would free up space... and I would not have to worry about the below...

If I stay with my subs, Ideally would use a low cross over for subs when watching movies and when I play music I would use listening mode Direct/Pure mode in my pre-pro... This disables sub but it also disables room correction Audyssey. When listening in Stereo (Audyssey engaged) vs Direct (No Audyssey)... Besides having less bass in Direct... Music sounds is more alive with Audyssey engaged.
I do like that I have ability to EQ Model 10 and using DEQ2496 would be nice to have... I'm not sure which would be better either doing manual EQ or using Audyssey... If I don't use subs... then I suspect I would be good just using Audyssey.
In order to have Audyssey engaged... Another option would be to set my system with no subs and in pre-pro settings and turn on subs when watching movies... but this can be an inconvenience doing this every time I switch between movies & music.

Another solution if I stay with subs... would be to get DEQ2496... and at least there would be EQ when I select direct mode...

Maybe I should worry about the above dilemma after I decide whether a sub is better for movies... and then re-ask

Just 2 ch audio here, Spike.

It sounds as though you'll need to experiment to figure it all out. As you say, see first if you actually need a sub. Good luck!

Congrats on your Sanders purchase. I am very interested in the Sanders and am now watching this thread closely for I am not fond of the internal bass amp of the Logans. I'd much prefer the flexibility to choose my own bass amp, and the Sanders come with an excellent amp included. I can't wait to read up on your review of the Sanders.
With regards to sub-woofers, I believe that the reason for your system coming "alive" with Audyssey engaged (for music) is due to the woofer design of the current speaker, AND the XPA-5 amplifier. I firmly believe that with the Sanders' woofers driven by the Sanders amp, you won't need the Audyssey to make up for the bass region. I have not had sub-woofers in my system for almost 18 years now. I used to have a DefTech 15" sub back in the days with my Magnepans. I put the DefTech sub into my system when I first got the Logans, but it just muddied up the bass. The Classe' was more than capable of controlling the 12" woofers, producing rumbles. Adding the DefTech woofers just made the bass more sluggish since the DefTech was not able to keep up with the woofers driven by the Classe'. Recently, I've replaced my Classe' with a Levinson 331 amp and the bass is even better!
My vote is for "direct" mode for 2-channel music listening. Good Luck.

Well, last night I spent couple of hours unboxing and rearranging all my gear... also removing my bass traps and acoustic panels... Total mess. Well after I put everything together unfortunately one of the speakers had an issue. Roger was readily available and after trouble shooting unfortunately it turn out a woofer cabinet needs replacement.
For that woofer, the shipping box had a hole probably due to shipping mishandling. When I was unboxing... I did not think too much because of all the padding that was done for the woofer cabinet.. Well, I suppose this occurs... In any case, Roger is sending me a replacement hopefully should receive by Wednesday.

Although I can't comment on audio, I would like to comment on M10 finish.... I had only seen some videos from like 2013 and I was not impressed on M10 finish specifically the back cabinet woofer, but I must say that it is different from what i had seen and it is much much better than I thought.... The final look is pretty good...

I do suspect that my XPA5 will not be enough for bass driver... but will test...

Spike99, first, congrats on the new speaker system, I'm sure you will love them. I always enjoy hearing the Sanders demos at trade shows, usually one of the best sounding rooms.

Secondly, sorry to hear you're having to wait for a replacement for the shipping damage.

Did you get a Sanders amp for the panels? His amps pair very nicely with ESLs, I know my system took a step forward when I added my Sanders ESL amp.

You might be surprised that the XPA5 might do the job, as an active crossover removes all those parasitic losses in typical speaker designs, and the amp just drives the woofer directly. And with subs, there just isn't a lot demanded from the woofers.

You asked about subs, and I am a big proponent of using them. Since you have very nice subs, I'd continue using them, since your pre-pro handles them and Audyssey will typically do a good job integrating and correcting them (please read my guide for correct DRC setup)

JonFo said:

Spike99, first, congrats on the new speaker system, I'm sure you will love them. I always enjoy hearing the Sanders demos at trade shows, usually one of the best sounding rooms.

Secondly, sorry to hear you're having to wait for a replacement for the shipping damage.

Did you get a Sanders amp for the panels? His amps pair very nicely with ESLs, I know my system took a step forward when I added my Sanders ESL amp.

You might be surprised that the XPA5 might do the job, as an active crossover removes all those parasitic losses in typical speaker designs, and the amp just drives the woofer directly. And with subs, there just isn't a lot demanded from the woofers.

You asked about subs, and I am a big proponent of using them. Since you have very nice subs, I'd continue using them, since your pre-pro handles them and Audyssey will typically do a good job integrating and correcting them (please read my guide for correct DRC setup)

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Yes, there was unfortunate shipping mishandling...
I did get 1 magtech amp from Roger which will be used on ESL...

On a side note... I did get speaker cables from Roger... These are custom cable he makes. I got 8 ft cables but it was a bit short and since he was sending me woofer cabinet I asked if he could exchange them for 9ft. To my surprise he said yes Great customer support !!

JonFo said:

Spike99, first, congrats on the new speaker system, I'm sure you will love them. I always enjoy hearing the Sanders demos at trade shows, usually one of the best sounding rooms.

Secondly, sorry to hear you're having to wait for a replacement for the shipping damage.

Did you get a Sanders amp for the panels? His amps pair very nicely with ESLs, I know my system took a step forward when I added my Sanders ESL amp.

You might be surprised that the XPA5 might do the job, as an active crossover removes all those parasitic losses in typical speaker designs, and the amp just drives the woofer directly. And with subs, there just isn't a lot demanded from the woofers.

You asked about subs, and I am a big proponent of using them. Since you have very nice subs, I'd continue using them, since your pre-pro handles them and Audyssey will typically do a good job integrating and correcting them (please read my guide for correct DRC setup)

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Jonfo. I know u had a bunch of sunfire. Tell me the diff between the sanders amps and sunfire. I have a signature grand. Thanks Tim