How much power is enough power?

Like the title says, for a given speaker, how much power is "enough"? I currently am using Ascents and it seems most people give them somewhere around 300-400watts. Are people buying amps that are rated those numbers at 4 ohms or at 8 ohms?

It is interesting to me that ML recommends 200w for most of their speakers, but everyone invariably runs 2-3-4 times that number. Why? And at what point do you decide that you've got enough power going to the speaker?

Hocky,

As most will tell you, all watts are not created equal.

So, the "number" may not be indicative of the quality nor the ability to handle impedance swings.

With the newer gen ML's with powered woofers, less watts (in theory) should be required because the amp is only driving the panel. However and as stated above, the ML panels do have quite the impedance dip.

And of course, there is the size of your room, the type of music you listen to, and how loud you like the volume.

In short, too many variables at play to answer the question. However, more power will provide a reserve for peak requirements and will, IMHO, sound better, all other things being equal.

GG

Hocky said:

Why?

Click to expand...

Obsession.

I would add to what Gordon said.

That with the impedance swings that you may get on your MLs, depending on what source material you are using, the harder they tend to drive your amp and because they are revealing speakers, you can hear when they are driving your amp or amps toward the limit.

Consequently the more headroom, read watts or current you have, the less likely you are to drive your Amp or Amps hard and subsequently the better your speakers/music should sound.

At least that is the story I heard and I have been told to stick to it.

That again is why so many use amps that double down as the impedance drops to 6,5,4, 3,2,1......Kapow. At least that is the story I heard.

So if you are looking at a Sunfire 5400 or 7400, they start at 400 watts at 8ohms and go to 800 watts at 4 ohms and 1600 watts at 2 ohms and 3200 watts at 1 ohm with 5 or 7 channels driven and basically no Kapow, which is what a lot of guys look for.

But then a lot of guys look for woman that is beautiful on the inside and the outside but.........that's my story and I am sticking to it.

OK, I understand the impedance issue and room size. That is clear. So I guess my question then really is how much is too much? At what point are components going to be damaged?

Running the amp into distortion will damage the speaker faster than ever having to much power.Too much power will start to bottom the woofer or panel to bottom out,running them full range.You can also increase the power rating by crossing them over at a higher point.Many speakers are rated at 200to 250 watts but many owners run a amp that is twice that.A good rule of thumb is to have an amplifier that doubles it power as the impedence drops in half.Sunfires are one of the best bang for the bucks and very popular on this site.

when your ears start to bleed you might damage your speakers.

I had 2x200W solid state biamping power on each of my Ascents before turning to tubes for panels and it was just gorgeous. No signs of strain, and did not damage them.

To quote a friend of mine:

"If some is good, and more is better, then too much is just about right".

To add to what Miljac said, there is an old saying

You can never be too rich, too sexy, to thin, to happy, to young or have too much power, okay I added that last one.

But the more power the more headroom the quieter the amp, as you are not running it to distortion detection levels.

Another old saying, don't worry about blowing up your speakers, your head should explode first.

The true answer I have heard most often is get as much power as you can reasonably afford or more if you can't afford it, because when you are chasing the 'Ghost', you can't afford not too. Welcome to our nightmare

Hocky, as long as you are not trying to blow your speakers, you will not be able to get enough juice into them to blow them. I say this again assuming that you are not trying to reach jet engine SPL's. I am running 1,000 watt Emotiva monoblocks to each Ascent I have.


The thing to remember though, is that I control the amount of power actually reaching the speakers (volume/gain). You could hook up a 10,000 watt amp and run it at normal listening levels where you barely use the wattage it is capable of. Its like have a dodge viper and only pressing the accelerator down half way. You are not always using the full rated power.

But, the max is important and especially for our speakers simply because of the impedance load. If you are listening at an spl level at 4 ohms (Ascents nominal impedance) that requires 100 watts to achieve, then when your Ascent drops to near 1 Ohm at 20khz, it will want to draw 400 watts to reproduce the 20khz frequency.

Now, if in theory, you were able to listen to a speaker that was 4 ohms across the audible frequency range 100 watts would be very loud. This would be a very spirited session so the example I gave above is not stereotypical. Well, maybe it is for some of our members!

The 1,000 watt monos are probably much more power than I will ever use with the Ascent's. They are probably overkill. But I love overkill!

I hope that helped,
Dominick

I'm also a 'no such thing as too much power' kind of guy (15 ch of high-current amplification should prove that)

But one can overpower the woofers, as their voice coils ultimately can overheat and self-destroy. But you'd be deaf by then.

The ESL panels can take a hell of a lot of juice. But you can't damage them that way.

Again, your ears will bleed well before that

I'm running 800 wpc Sanders Sound Monobloc ESL amplifiers into Summits, which have 400 watts of onboard woofer amplification of their own, so I guess you know where I stand on the issue.

You can certainly run ML's effectively with lower powered amps, especially with certain quality tube or Class A solid state designs. But you may not be able to really turn it up and rock the house, and you may lose a little in the top end with certain designs. Dynamics will be limited.

But if you like to play it loud on occasion, and you want realistic dynamics, razor sharp transients, and the ability to handle complex passages with ease and with no distortion, there is no absolutely no substitute for a large quantity of high quality watts along with ample current.

If you are buying really quality amps, I don't think the amount of wattage matters all that much. Anything over a hundred watts and under a 1000 ought to serve your Logans just fine with no harm. I highly recommend amps by Roger Sanders and Nelson Pass.

I was looking at the sanders esl amps before I bought the Emotiva amps. They were out of my price range, but I sure wish that I could hear them.

Do you feel that the Sanders amps and Pass amps are similar?

Dominick

What is your opinion of the Emotivas? Their price tags are definitely appealing!

Dominick22 said:

Do you feel that the Sanders amps and Pass amps are similar?

Click to expand...

They are similar in that they both put out gobs of power and exert complete control over the speakers. But I would say that the Pass Labs amp (I have an X-350.5) is just a tad warmer and has more body, i.e., greater depth of tone. While the Sanders amp is more neutral throughout the frequency range. However, some of my opinion on this may be affected by the fact that I have the Pass hooked up to my Ascents while the Sanders are hooked up to my Summits and those speakers have their own different sound characteristics.

Hi Hocky,

ML recommends 200 wpc as a general rule, and I find it holds fairly well. I also generally fall into more power is better category. However, there are many other factors in play as well, such as amps design, quality of parts used, and power supply design that can make a lesser powered amp sound better than a high powered amp.

Case and point is the Sanders amp. I gave it a 30 day trial and found it very good for its price point. However, although Sanders is rated at 400 wpc, I found the Ayre V1 - Xe much more to my liking. I played the Sanders for a week. Once I plugged the Ayre in, I did not plug the Sanders in until the last day I had to send it back, and I rushed off to the post office to send it back. Charlie Hansen of Ayre made Roger Sanders look like an amateur. The Ayre is only 200 wpc, but costs twice more htan the Sanders.

At a similar price point as the Ayre, there is the CJ Premier 350. Once I plugged that in, out went the Ayre...Conrad and Johson made Charlie Hansen of Ayre look like an amateur...So in the case of similar price points, more power is better...

Now I think the CJ 350 is as good as it gets. However, I am always exploring. I put a couple of Atmasphere monoblocks on my Spires out of curiousity. These guys are only 140 wpc, but cost over $20K. They smoked my CJ 350 in every area other than bass articulation and a little extension of the highs.

So, yes, power is important, but design and parts are important as well. Of course, there is also personal taste. Many guys like a low powered tube amps, and there is nothing wrong with that either...

Hocky said:

... And at what point do you decide that you've got enough power going to the speaker?

Click to expand...

I was previously running my Summits with a Belles Ref 350 amp (250W) and it drove them very well. However, after hearing other local Summit and Summit X setups that sounded more dynamic using higher powered amps, I decided to upgrade to the CJ Premier 350 (350W). All I can say is I never realized what I was missing! As GG reiterated "all watts are not created equal," so I wouldn't recommend choosing an amp based solely on power rating. However, all other things being equal, more Watts (and Amps) is mo better!

For get the WATTS Remember Current. Stability into 1 ohm CLASS A = clean power

I run a pair of monoblocks that are rated to deliver 600 watts each into 4 ohms but more importantly they are class a/ab so they transition from class a to class ab at somewhere near 100 watts, which means that except for peaks in very loud passages they are running class a. A smaller amp would produce less class a power.

Perhaps it is imagined but there is an ease that large amps have at high SPL that can be sensed if not actually heard.

Hocky said:

What is your opinion of the Emotivas? Their price tags are definitely appealing!

Click to expand...

Hocky, I am holding my tongue for right now before doing a thorough review of the Emotiva gear. I want to wait until the excitement of the new gear wears off so that I can be neutral in my comments. I don't want to give them raving reviews just to prove to myself that it was worth the money I spent!

Dominick