Which NON ML subs have you used that blend well with ML speakers

[peacefulcargo]

Just wondering any good subs out there (not looking to buy just looking to share info) that blend well with MLs CLS or CLX specifically. Personally I have used REL (musical but not fast enough), 4 X Grotto i's, (pretty good but too much cabling and real estate), Wilson Infrasonic Generator X2 (very good). Thanks

 

[ttocs]

With my Vistas I was using two Sumiko S.10's in stereo mode. Worked well. I played with the cutoff freq for LFE usage with Vistas Small and was torn between 120Hz and 60Hz. I was never able to wire up using both the Neutrik Speakon connector and LFE at the same time, same as can be done with my old Rel. There's a ground issue on the outlet my projector is plugged into so I'd get a ground loop hum when both inputs were used. The Neutrik connector by itself worked hum-less and sounded better but never got around to reworking the electric outlet before getting Expression 13A's last week, and they don't need a sub.

 

[JonFo]

Plenty of decent subs out there, so to me, the most critical piece is what tools do you have at your disposal to perform the integration and know you are getting optimal results.

The first tool is knowledge, as understanding room acoustics is important to be able to select gear, place it and tune it. So read the Harman Paper on sub placement, and how multiple subs can deliver even better room integration and performance.

Second is measurement tools and knowing how to interpret what they show you. These days, a simple smartphone app is a couple of bucks and has reasonable enough performance for setting up subs correctly. I highly recommend the Studio Six Digital app called 'Audio Tools' it's an all-in-one swiss army knife app with a bunch of different tests and metrics available.
More sophisticated user can get the REW app for laptops and a <$100 USB mic like the Daytom UMM-6

Third is some form of active crossover and time-delay to correctly blend the subs to the mains and set delay, so timing is in sync.
If using a HomeTheater preamp or receiver, they usually have those functions included, and if using the automatic room corrector (ARC, Audyssey, etc.) then pretty easy.
Otherwise, a MiniDSP 2x4 HD is a great tool and supported by apps like REW which can calculate and load crossover curves, and help you determine delay settings. Plenty of recipes on how to use this for subs out there.
If running more than two subs, then the MiniDSP 4x10 HD would be the tool.

With the above, you can take most decent subs and integrate them well to whatever main speakers and your results are quite likely to be better than just taking the 'best', expensive sub and placing where it 'looks' best and doing a basic connection.
I've seen setups with expensive JL-Audio subs that sound horrible, with super bloated, uneven bass. Not the subs that are the problem, it's the setup (or lack thereof).
In contrast, I ran an experiment where I took four of MartinLogans cheapest subs, Dynamo 300's, put them into the worst shaped room (acoustically) and it performs incredibly well. Here's the thread detailing that setup.

 

[JonFo]

Also, don't ignore the incredible value that can be found in DIY subs. For one, there is a whole category of subs that can only be done via DIY, which is the Infinite Baffle sub design. I have one, and it slays commercial subs of any price.

And if looking to do four subs, then kits from Dayton audio are a great way to get the quantity for a reasonable cost.
So four of the Dayton Ultimax 15 drivers in pre-cut and assembled box kits https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-15-ultimax-subwoofer-and-cabinet-bundle--300-7097 for $317/ea = $1,268
Plus a miniDSP 2x4 HD $200
Plus a pair of Crown DriveCore2 XLS 2502 amps for $600/ea = $1,200

So for under $3,000 (with cables, etc.) you can have four high-performance 15" subs tuned to your room for some really smooth, deep and well-integrated bass. Correctly setup, this would outperform any single sub, regardless of price.

 

[JonFo]

And don't forget, some of the most impactful range in the low-end is actually in the mid-bass (45 to 120Hz), which based on topology and typical placement is a weak spot for ESL systems, especially older designs like a CLS or passive hybrids like an SL3. The new Masterpiece line handles that range much better, especially after ARC is applied.

If rolling your own crossovers, you can configure an MBM channel output to drive a nearfield MidBass Module (MBM), or two. This will allow you to have a more tactile sensation of key frequencies in rock music :rocker: and restores fundamentals in things like a grand piano. All without raising the overall low end too much when boosting a single sub.

I deployed two MBMs into my setup, and boy is it fun, here is the full write up on that.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

I haven't tried to blend my SVC PC 4000 with my ML's. I'd be curious to see what it does. It does a GREAT job for movies Moving it is a two man job, so I doubt I'll play with it just for grins.

The smart phone app to adjust it works well, but it doesn't have an intelligent automatic adjustment. I just tweaked it until it felt sounded right to me. I wasn't helping it any by just sticking it out of the way in a back corner of the room. At least it is directly on concrete. That said, integrating it with a set of Definitive Surrounds is a completely different animal than with my ML's.

 

[peacefulcargo]

And don't forget, some of the most impactful range in the low-end is actually in the mid-bass (45 to 120Hz), which based on topology and typical placement is a weak spot for ESL systems, especially older designs like a CLS or passive hybrids like an SL3. The new Masterpiece line handles that range much better, especially after ARC is applied.

If rolling your own crossovers, you can configure an MBM channel output to drive a nearfield MidBass Module (MBM), or two. This will allow you to have a more tactile sensation of key frequencies in rock music :rocker: and restores fundamentals in things like a grand piano. All without raising the overall low end too much when boosting a single sub.

I deployed two MBMs into my setup, and boy is it fun, here is the full write up on that.

Thanks this is really insightful.