What Do You Strive For In A System - Accuracy Or Euphony?

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Accuracy means that the sound closely matches the actual recording on the source material. By playing the same material on many different systems, you start to get an idea of what systems play the material accurately, and what systems don't.

Perhaps. But the only people who know how the recording should sound are the people who made it. This then brings up the notion that if you're not using the gear they used and in a similar room.......you can see where that goes. Maybe that's why so many recordings of the 50s through the 70s sound very lifelike played over Altec Duplexes and VOTs. And why the Beach Boys sound spectacular over JBLs with 15" woofs and compression drivers. I wouldn't be surprised in the RCA LC-1 cult comprised many Elvis fans.


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In any event accuracy in a speaker can't be defined and without an accurate speaker an accurate sytem can only be approached. Not to mention that many call their own preferences "accuracy".
 
Great pictures Irish.

Can you provide more?

I love the feeling of history that these pictures embody.

I can see Elvis in the center of the top photo.

Who are the musicians in the bottom photo?

GG
 
Who are the musicians in the bottom photo?

GG


That's the control room at Stax in Memphis. In the photo are Sam and Dave, Issac Hayes, Jackson and Love (Memphis Horns) and Steve Cropper. Jim Stewart the owner sits at the desk.

Beatles listen to an Altec 605

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Monkees with an RCA LC-1 and an Altec A7

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Phil Spector's band and Altec A7 playback monitors

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World's greatest Rock and Roll band.....Presley, Moore, Black and Fontana

art7416good20rockin20tonight_6UP_00.jpg
 
In any event accuracy in a speaker can't be defined and without an accurate speaker an accurate sytem can only be approached. Not to mention that many call their own preferences "accuracy".

I understand your perspective, Irish. If you are looking for absolutes, this is probably not the place to satisfy that need. Which is why a lot of times engineers just can't seem to understand the perspective of audiophiles and vice versa. But I disagree that an accurate speaker can't be defined. I would say it is a speaker that most accurately amplifies the signal that is fed to it. There, how tough was that? :D

At any rate, having heard just about every type of speaker and all kinds of gear from all kinds of manufacturers, I feel pretty confident in my ability to tell an accurate system from a euphonic system and that is good enough for me. At the same time, I fully believe that folks who have a better ear for music, and/or exposure to much more diversity of equipment, probably have a better grasp of the two concepts and the shades of gray between them than I do.

Ultimately, I have no problem identifying my system as more accurate and less euphonic than for instance, the Vista/Jolida combination, which is far less accurate but much more euphonic, based on listening to the same material on many different systems to get an idea of how the material "should" sound and then listening to it on those two systems and comparing how it sounds on them.
 
I'm an engineer, musician, composer, and music lover (varying degrees of skill and talent). In creating speakers from this POV, I have struggled a bit with the accuracy/euphony issue. Here is what I think it boils down to: One stands the best chance of creating one's preferred flavor of euphony when starting with a system that is capable of faithfully reproducing the sounds that originally reached the microphones. Some will prefer not to add colorations to such a system, and might say they prefer an accurate sound. Everyone with such a system will have the option, however, of varying most of the factors that affect euphony to suit shifting taste and mood without investing in a new system each time the urge strikes, not that this is necessarily an attractive benefit.

I think this defninition of accuracy is in line with the classic notion of high fidelity. I have heard "hi-fi" used in a pejorative sense these days, though, which is unfortunate. I think it got this way because the term has been widely misapplied to various sorts of coloration that sound exciting or fresh or whatever in the short run, but ultimately detract from the experience of the music. I know I am simplifying, but now people seem to say "hi-fi" to connote sterility or edginess, "accuracy" to connote a lack of euphony, and "euphony" to connote something that contributes to the emotional connection. Anyway, starting with the basic idea that euphony is different from accuracy, I do not think accuracy is antithetical to euphony.

I believe systems that are high in fidelity are advantageous, and have put a priority on this type of accuracy when developing speakers. I have heard supposedly accurate speakers accused of sounding "analytical", but I would say that they are either not as accurate as they are suppsoed to be, or there is some other factor in the system, room or recorded material. Also, uncontrolled factors mentioned by others in this thread, like stongly colored studio monitors and primitive microphones affect playback on euphonious systems just as much as accurate ones.

About needing to play an instrument to appreciate music, I'll have to say that I think this is not the case. In fact, it can lead to a preoccupation with technical matters, such as a musician's or a conductor's technique and interpretation, which detracts from emotional engagement with the music. Also, an understanding of music composition leads to a similar distraction. One can easily find oneself analyzing the music instead of experiencing it, and worse, when one can see the thinking behind the music, this dilutes its mystery and magic. One might as well suggest that everyone learn how to design amplifiers. Believe me, their charm is much reduced. Also, anyone who feels they might be guilty of underappreciating a performer's or composer's talent can fix this much more quickly and easily than with lessons and classes, just by singing a made up song into a microphone and playing it back.

On the general topic of engagement with the music, it is important, I think, and someone else mentioned this earlier, important to ignore the system at some point, and just be immersed in the music. For me, this is easier to do when the system has no sound of its own, and the room has no huge bumps or dips, and a bunch of other things, but these are not requirements. I've even got goose bumps from my car radio, for heaven's sake, in a good sense, I mean. For others, immersion is easier when the system is euphonic in one way or another.

Anyway, FWIW, I like that there is no end-all in the audiophile pursuit, even for those chasing the ultimate in accuracy. There will always be something distinctive about every system, and no playback will be exactly like the original performance. All we can shoot for is playback that is as enjoyable as a live performance, and we can feel proud when we achieve it. It's both the fun and the frustration.
 
But I disagree that an accurate speaker can't be defined. I would say it is a speaker that most accurately amplifies the signal that is fed to it. There, how tough was that? :D

More difficult that you thought, Rich - speakers don't amplify - they "transduce" (i.e. convert to sound) the amplified electrical signal.

About needing to play an instrument to appreciate music, I'll have to say that I think this is not the case. In fact, it can lead to a preoccupation with technical matters, such as a musician's or a conductor's technique and interpretation, which detracts from emotional engagement with the music. Also, an understanding of music composition leads to a similar distraction. One can easily find oneself analyzing the music instead of experiencing it, and worse, when one can see the thinking behind the music, this dilutes its mystery and magic. One might as well suggest that everyone learn how to design amplifiers. Believe me, their charm is much reduced. Also, anyone who feels they might be guilty of underappreciating a performer's or composer's talent can fix this much more quickly and easily than with lessons and classes, just by singing a made up song into a microphone and playing it back.

And David, I don't think I said you need to play an instrument to appreciate it, did I? Hell, I appreciated it well before I ever started to learn how to play.

As a point of note, whilst I can see your "distraction" points, I have to say I have never actually suffered from any of them. Of course, I am not everyone, and others may indeed suffer from your noted afflictions. I can well see a composer, jealous, say, of another's achievements, becoming completely obsessive over such matters.

Interesting post, David.
 
I can well see a composer, jealous, say, of another's achievements, becoming completely obsessive over such matters.

Interesting post, David.

Thanks.

Anyway, I was thinking less of competitive distraction than just a simple tendency to analyze what one knows something about in order to understand the work product, whether it is a motorcycle or a piece of music.

It's the difference in the types of impressions, feelings and imagery one gets from experiencing the visceral effects of music vs. hearing a certain sequence of notes played a certain way on a certain instrument in a certain context while being aware of the emotional reactions one can elicit using a certain musical vocabulary, and trying to figure out what the fingering was and whether an overtone was in use and whether a different emphasis on the downbeat might mesh better with the sequence of notes and if so, was the tension intended and if so, why was that tension important, and oh I recognize the folk tune that this phrase was excepted from and wow that was a masterfully even series of fast notes, and oh how subtle the control of nuance from that violinist . . .

Sort of like noticing the center image seems less focused than usual did someone move the furniture and how come that high note seemed to move sideways a bit, but wow I like how my subs do that thump from the kick drum, but drat the louder high piano notes seem a bit compressed and I'm missing all the low B-flat notes from the bass, better treat the room but wow those cymbals sound so pure and real, and that singer could be sitting in my lap . . .
 
More difficult that you thought, Rich - speakers don't amplify - they "transduce" (i.e. convert to sound) the amplified electrical signal.

Shoot! Good catch, Justin. They are indeed transducers, which is why you have to have an amplifier hooked up to them to amplify the signal. Duh! And I thought someone was going to give me flack for using the term "accurate" as part of the definition of the term "accurate." :D

Interesting post, David.

Ditto on that. I really enjoyed that post, David.
 
It's the difference in the types of impressions, feelings and imagery one gets from experiencing the visceral effects of music vs. hearing a certain sequence of notes played a certain way on a certain instrument in a certain context while being aware of the emotional reactions one can elicit using a certain musical vocabulary, and trying to figure out what the fingering was and whether an overtone was in use and whether a different emphasis on the downbeat might mesh better with the sequence of notes and if so, was the tension intended and if so, why was that tension important, and oh I recognize the folk tune that this phrase was excepted from and wow that was a masterfully even series of fast notes, and oh how subtle the control of nuance from that violinist . . .

Hm. When I have a guitar in my hands, it's all about mood and emotion. I don't really analyse it - it is more of a spontaneous thing. I know how to achieve a certain mood by playing in a certain manner or way, but it is simply a means to an end or an expression of mood.

If I'm feeling edgy, unsettled or uptight, there's no better way of "getting out of my system" than a good thrash on the electric. Conversely, when I'm chilled, I'll play slower, more delicate pieces on an acoustic (but I can thrash that, too!).

But when I'm not playing, but listening instead, I'm looking for the same sort of gratification, I suppose. I want whatever I'm listening to to invoke an emotional response. Which I feel is better delivered overall via a system with a more euphonic balance as opposed to "it doesn't sound very good, but I think that is accurate", if you catch my drift. As Ivor T. from Linn used to say, if it sounds better, it is better. I couldn't agree more.

I guess when I am listening as opposed to playing, I am more analytical. But that is probably because my mind doesn't have to concentrate on listening and playing at the same time.
 
But I disagree that an accurate speaker can't be defined. I would say it is a speaker that most accurately amplifies the signal that is fed to it.

Came across this statement and just want to add my opinion, which is; an accurate speaker is the one in the cabinet in which the instrument is plugged. Everything else is an attempt to reproduce that speaker's sound.

When reproducing non amplified sources every speaker is a deviation from the true sound. Now several factors come into consideration, from the microphones and studio equipment, to the transcription onto a deliverable format, to the individual home components. Can there truly be an "accurate" speaker, considering all the variables, other than the one in the cabinet?
 
Came across this statement and just want to add my opinion, which is; an accurate speaker is the one in the cabinet in which the instrument is plugged. Everything else is an attempt to reproduce that speaker's sound.

When reproducing non amplified sources every speaker is a deviation from the true sound. Now several factors come into consideration, from the microphones and studio equipment, to the transcription onto a deliverable format, to the individual home components. Can there truly be an "accurate" speaker, considering all the variables, other than the one in the cabinet?

Notice I didn't say "one that perfectly reproduces the original sound of the players." I said: "one that reproduces the signal that is fed to it." Nor did I say anything about absolute accuracy, as there is no such thing in audio. I said one that "most accurately" reproduces the original signal.

Electronics (even the speaker plugged into the guitar amp) will never perfectly reproduce the sound of a voice or instrument and it is silly to pretend otherwise. But the simple fact is that some speakers will more accurately reproduce an audio signal than others. It is a comparative thing. No question, in my mind, that some speakers will reproduce a signal more accurately, while other speakers will add colorations, and frequency or timing errors that will make them less accurate in their ability to reproduce the signal that is fed to them.
 
Electronics (even the speaker plugged into the guitar amp) will never perfectly reproduce the sound of a voice or instrument and it is silly to pretend otherwise.

Hm... a guitar amp's job (for the most part) is to "make a complete mess" of the signal being fed into it from the guitar itself, Even when playing "clean" they probably aren't very accurate at all. I'd say that the instrument is really a combo of the guitar and the amp/speaker and any pedals or effects in use. And it is this combo that gets recorded (usually) via a mic. Sure, Fenders typically sound cleaner than Les Pauls, say, so the guitars themselves do have tonal characteristics.

It is after all an "electric" guitar - not much use without an amp and speaker.

Some of the high end guitar amps do sound absolutely fantastic in the flesh by themselves. Those that do so are all thoroughbred all tube designs, in my opinion. After all, the sound of rock'n'roll is an overloaded/screaming tube(s). Nothing quite like it:devil::devil::devil::devil::devil:

So there we have it - a guitar amp is all about euphony, and s*d all about accuracy. Interesting.
 
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It is after all an "electric" guitar - not much use without an amp and speaker.

Not true, Justin. You can record directly from the guitar preamp without using an amp, speaker and mike. It is done all the time. You can even use a speaker simulator eq. to simulate the effect of various types of speaker cabinets. Ultimately, though, I would argue that the guitar is the instrument, and everything else is just electronic manipulation of the audio signal produced by that instrument. Just as in someone using a voice synthesizer. Their vocal cords are still the musical instrument that is played. The electronic manipulation of that voice is an after-effect added to achieve a certain sound.

I do agree with your analysis that the guitar amp's job is pretty much to add coloration to the sound, sometimes euphonic, sometimes not so euphonic. But rarely is it accurate. But then the question remains, do you prefer an audio system that accurately reproduces that colored sound? Or one that adds its own euphonic richness to the mix?
 
It is after all an "electric" guitar - not much use without an amp and speaker.

OK, Rich, if you want to get pedantic about it. The acknowledgement that this isn't always the case was "And it is this combo that gets recorded (usually) via a mic."

FWIW, I have been down the route you discuss, and spent money on digital effects boxes and processing s/w (amp simulators etc). Quite frankly, I was not impressed in terms of pure SQ, but they do offer a lot of flexibility.

For the remaining/outstanding question: I prefer the system that sounds consistently the best (or scores the most "bests") over a wide range of material. For me, that is the entire point of system building and hi-fi.

Trouble is, we don't know how to measure accurate apart from flat frequency responses and the usual boring measurements. Where's the resolution measurement, for instance? I think that is a very interesting question. Would Ethan just state it is purely related to frequency response, I wonder?

If it was determined (somehow) that the system with the most "bests" turned out to be the most accurate, I'd take it. Who wouldn't?
 
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More photos Irish?

More pictures please Irish.

Maybe you could start a new thread so you and other folks can share these great photos. Thank you again.

GG
 
For the remaining/outstanding question: I prefer the system that sounds consistently the best (or scores the most "bests") over a wide range of material. For me, that is the entire point of system building and hi-fi.

That's dodging your own question, Justin. :D "Best" is subjective. The question you asked is whether someone finds a more accurate system to sound "best" or whether a more euphonic system sounds "best."

Trouble is, we don't know how to measure accurate apart from flat frequency responses and the usual boring measurements.

Personally, I use my ears to measure accuracy. Measurements can't tell you near as much about a system's ability to reproduce an audio signal as your own ears can, in my opinion. But then, I'm not an engineer. ;)

And before I get castigated for the above remark, yes I understand that it is all subjective. One man's accuracy is another man's euphony. And around and around we go.
 
That's dodging your own question, Justin. :D "Best" is subjective. The question you asked is whether someone finds a more accurate system to sound "best" or whether a more euphonic system sounds "best."

On the contrary, I think it answers it directly, if you consider all the comments I made earlier in the thread about accuracy versus euphony and the ability to determine which is which.

There are extremes. For instance, I regard my Scott 350 as a total liar - it makes every other tuner I've tried sound pretty awful, really. Or is it the only one close to the truth? Here we go again, round and round:)
 
I tried to go as accurate as possible, but there are caveats.

It is difficult to say which is true to the recording and we go with instinct based on experience (or lack thereof especially those of us - like myself - with limited experience with instruments), research, opinions from others, reviews, and the general understanding of the hobby.

However, in the end, I decided that I can only be accurate to a degree - there's a sound I'm after and I cannot have a system without a sense of euphony.

That said, I'm not going to build a system that caramelizes every onion - I want to feel the sting of a raw one as well.
 
Justin,

Looks like Jonathan Valin has an interesting twist on this. He does not agree with your dicotomy. He has added a new category, as he has been exploring some really expensive stuff - Soulution, ARC, and BALABO.

1. True to recording
2. True to natural voice or instrument in the actual hall
3. Like the real thing - how we idealize or remember the sounds of instruments or vocals


Let more arguments begin....

Check out this thread:
http://www.avguide.com/blog/lets-ca...-mk-ii-control-amplifier-and-bp-1-mk-ii-power
 
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