Video Projector - JVC RS2

[JonFo]

I've been contemplating switching away from my existing Sony G70 CRT projector to a digital, and every time I've looked, there is much to like, but also much to dislike. And since I'm a total black-level whore, I just could not get over the low contrast ratios and poor blacks that bulb projectors have.

Also the lack of frequency adaptation (72/60/48) on horizontal refreshes meant more temporal anomalies than I'd like. On my PJ, I run movies at 48Hz, which yields some awesome color and no temporal judder.

But now, the new JVC RS2 projector, recently reviewed By Greg Rodgers on WideScreen review, seems to be getting closer.

Big thread on that review here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=983474

However, the one thing that struck me about his review Is how he compared it no less than 10 times to a CRT’s performance characteristics.

So I’m left scratching my head as to why I would fork out $8K for a new PJ that gives me CRT-like performance, when I already have a pretty good CRT.

I think I’m back to waiting for a bulb-less version in a year or two.

At CES, someone demonstrated a hacked RS1 using Lasers to replace the bulb, and while only a prototype, sure demonstrated the potential of that illuminator technology. Perfect black levels with an illuminator that can be shutoff instantly, as well as a color gamut that will truly deliver ‘deep color’ from HD discs.

What do you guys think of the current state of the PJ world?

 

[DrJRapp]

I decided to wait out next years technology by buying cheap...an Optoma HD80. I won't invest the big bucks that a high end projector costs if it uses incandesent technology.

 

[Rich]

Jonathan,

All I know about this is what I have learned from my own experience. When we watched Planet Earth in high def on your projector, it appeared to look like standard def to me. Not sharp at all. When I watch the same show on my own RS1 projector, it is incredibly sharp in all its high def glory. I think you are missing out on a true high def experience with that projector.

As for black levels, I am probably not as critical of them as you. But I have not had any problem with them as long as all the lights are off. And for the record, my ceiling is white and my walls are a creamy yellow, so it is not even the best room for black levels. In your room, with the RS2, I think you would be hard pressed to find any problem with the black levels unless you wanted to keep some lights on while you had the projector running.

I have to agree with you that the future looks promising for projector illumination sources. The laser mod sounds cool. But how soon do we really think these alternate technologies will take to start showing up in cost-effective projectors for the consumer? I am betting it could still be several years off if not more. The question is how long do you want to continue to give up your prime listening sweet spot to a three-eyed monster while enjoying subpar high definition viewing? I know what my choice would be.

 

[Pcar928fan]

If the big G is not very sharp then you may need a good adjustment. In theory the best of the CRT's should can out perform just about anything on the market still today! They are just HUGE and require frequent convergence adjustments, and obviously they can burn in pretty bad, but it is hard to beat the pictures you CAN get from them. They will go to much higher resolutions than the 1080p you would need for HD... You should be able to extract amazing pictures from a CRT FP. The best were $40k to $60k when new and now a totally refurbed and updated version can be had for $8kish... If you have the room and the way to mount them, they can still be quite impressive!

 

[Rich]

If the big G is not very sharp then you may need a good adjustment. In theory the best of the CRT's should can out perform just about anything on the market still today!

Actually, that was probably the issue. I remember now JonFo saying something about needing to get it recalibrated.

But I still couldn't give up that huge section of center sweet-spot seating that his projector takes up. I would have to figure out a way to ceiling mount the thing, if that is even possible.

 

[kcl]

It will be a long time before there's equipment that can replace my beloved G90 projecting on a 96" x 54" Stewart Studiotek 130 screen. I know it will happen, but I believe its still at least two or three years out.

 

[JonFo]

Actually, that was probably the issue. I remember now JonFo saying something about needing to get it recalibrated.

But I still couldn't give up that huge section of center sweet-spot seating that his projector takes up. I would have to figure out a way to ceiling mount the thing, if that is even possible.

Rich, yep, it needed a complete mechanical through convergence reset.

When you saw it, I had just replaced the screen frame, and while I repositioned it so the convergence only required a pixel or two re-alignment, the focus is off a bit. When correctly set up (and the last time I did mechanical setup was >five years ago), one can see scan lines at 1080i.

Right now, it's only resolving up to about 800 lines (using HD-DVE patterns).

So I’m thinking that for the price of a bulb, I need to get a pro calibrator out here to redo mechanical and EM focus, as well as redo my main registrations.

I can do the registration alignment no problem (I even use an LCD projector to put up alignment patterns that I converge to, makes it go quicker that way). But mechanical and EM focus is bear.

As for the sweet spot, I agree, that’s the biggest problem with the floor mounted CRT. I always figured it would be just a couple of years, not seven, before a digital came along I’d really want.

 

[JonFo]

Jonathan,

All I know about this is what I have learned from my own experience. When we watched Planet Earth in high def on your projector, it appeared to look like standard def to me. Not sharp at all. When I watch the same show on my own RS1 projector, it is incredibly sharp in all its high def glory. I think you are missing out on a true high def experience with that projector. …

Rich, no question the Sharpness delta between a CRT and a digital is large. But the lack of good alignment in the CRT exacerbated the difference.

…
As for black levels, I am probably not as critical of them as you. But I have not had any problem with them as long as all the lights are off. And for the record, my ceiling is white and my walls are a creamy yellow, so it is not even the best room for black levels. In your room, with the RS2, I think you would be hard pressed to find any problem with the black levels unless you wanted to keep some lights on while you had the projector running. …

Given Greg Rodgers measurements, it sounds like the RS2 is indeed pretty good in this respect. I’m sure If I put in an RS2, I’d not have huge regrets.

But every time I watch a dark movie, I just marvel at the inky blacks, and the deep shadow detail I can achieve with the CRT. Having pure HDMI into the PJ (using the new Moome card with gamma controls) has sure made a difference.

Color uniformity is the other reason I still enjoy CRT. As it just seems to have better color balance than some digitals.

…

I have to agree with you that the future looks promising for projector illumination sources. The laser mod sounds cool. But how soon do we really think these alternate technologies will take to start showing up in cost-effective projectors for the consumer? I am betting it could still be several years off if not more. The question is how long do you want to continue to give up your prime listening sweet spot to a three-eyed monster while enjoying subpar high definition viewing? I know what my choice would be.

I’m thinking the LED and Laser based PJ’s will hit the market sooner than we think, the eco aspects alone would spur manufactures and consumers alike. But the light and color balance consistency (as compared to bulbs that change brightness by 40% and go through substantial color drift as they age) are what will really accelerate adoption. Oh, and cost savings against $400 per 1,000 to 2,000 hrs of viewing for bulbs.

How long to give up the prime seat? Hopefully not long, but I’ve tuned the room and the rig for the current second row seats, so it’s not too big a deal anymore.

I do need to get an in-home trial of the RS2 to compare.

 

[JonFo]

I decided to wait out next years technology by buying cheap...an Optoma HD80. I won't invest the big bucks that a high end projector costs if it uses incandesent technology.

Jerry, yep, that’s my plan B, get a used or lower end digital and wait. But given I thought we’d be further along several years ago. I’m leery.

It will be a long time before there's equipment that can replace my beloved G90 projecting on a 96" x 54" Stewart Studiotek 130 screen. I know it will happen, but I believe its still at least two or three years out.

KCL, you know it!

Also, those StudioTek 130 screens are the best, my microperf version is great (which BTW- the moiré problems with earlier digitals and microperf screens is one of the reasons I stuck with CRT).

I’m seriously hoping it will be soon, as the convergence and alignment is such a bear anytime I move the screen or the PJ.

 

[benleeys]

Jon,
I thought the G70 does not have the capacity to do 1080 on a 16:9 without scaling; only the G90 can. I know my D50 can only do up to 720, and does it beautifully with SD with the aid of a Moome card.

 

[Rich]

I do need to get an in-home trial of the RS2 to compare.

Given the cost and time associated with a calibration, I think I would do the in-home trial of an RS2 first. If it was satisfactory to you and you decided to buy it, that would save you the calibration cost and hassle. Doesn't look like the CRT's are worth a whole lot on the used market, so it would be a big chunk of change to upgrade. That is certainly something to consider.

Depending on how well the JVC's hold up on the used market, when the new pj's come out with an advanced light source, you could just sell the RS2 to help pay for that upgrade. I notice there are not too many RS1's on Videogon (compared to Sony and others) and they are holding up to 80% of their value after a year or two.

Or you could just be patient and wait it out and buy the best pj out there in three to five years. I think that is a realistic (maybe a little optimistic) time frame for any new technologies to make it into reasonably-priced consumer-grade projectors.

 

[jk319]

Hey guys, just two days ago I purchased a slightly used/demo RS-1 from the projector forum at AVS. I don't know if you guys noticed the sale, but it didn't last more than a day! $2,999, 2-yr warranty included, all low hours, some extremely low. No way to know how many hours exactly at purchase, however. JVC went straight to AVS to unload them. (You guys might have noticed my "gratuitous bump" on Seth's thread; I wanted his friends who were in a similar situation to know about it). Alas, it was to no avail, they sold out within minutes of my purchase.

I had been eyeing the Panasonic AE-2000 from Costco (the poor man's RS-1), hoping to do a dedicated room this early spring. Then I saw this deal, and prematurely bought it before being 100% I could pull it off! LOL. I will try my damndest to make this work out, that's for sure. Aiming for DaLite HP, will paint ceiling and front walls black once I feel confident it will work. It won't get here for another 2 weeks.

JonFo, in the case that this dream of mine doesn't work out (small chance), I would need to unload it. If you are interested, I'd gladly sell it to you, our esteemed guru....

Anyways, Im excited! First projector = SUPERSIZED HT!

p.s. Almost forgot, I noticed an AVS sales rep say that this will definitely not be the first projector "firesale". Jon, I might consider checking in to that site on a regular basis. Just bookmark the site, and take a daily 1 second glance at the stickies is all that is required. Could save you $1000s! Cheers.

 

[jfm]

jk - by painting the ceiling black, are you planning to ceiling-mount the pj? i have the dalite hp and, as i'm sure you've researched, it has a narrow viewing cone. you could make it work with a ceiling mounted pj, but only just.

congrats on the jvc!

 

[jk319]

Thanks jfm No cieling mount, going as on-axis as I can. Im thinking of a rather (very?) tall audio rack in the back. Kill two birds with one stone. Saw a few over 60" at some sites.

Im actually more concerned with side-to-side gain as opposed to the vertical positioning. I think the side angles might actually be greater, depending.... this is all speculation! First projector (still not too worried though, I believe there's at least a 1.0 gain at 20 degrees, extremely narrow as that might be...)... what kind of FP do you have? Is your DaLite model B, C, electric? :cheers:

 

[JonFo]

Given the cost and time associated with a calibration, I think I would do the in-home trial of an RS2 first. If it was satisfactory to you and you decided to buy it, that would save you the calibration cost and hassle. Doesn't look like the CRT's are worth a whole lot on the used market, so it would be a big chunk of change to upgrade. That is certainly something to consider.

Depending on how well the JVC's hold up on the used market, when the new pj's come out with an advanced light source, you could just sell the RS2 to help pay for that upgrade. I notice there are not too many RS1's on Videogon (compared to Sony and others) and they are holding up to 80% of their value after a year or two.

Or you could just be patient and wait it out and buy the best pj out there in three to five years. I think that is a realistic (maybe a little optimistic) time frame for any new technologies to make it into reasonably-priced consumer-grade projectors.

Rich, good point, if sold on the RS2, why put in 50% of current PJ’s resale value (decent G70’s go for $1K) in a setup I would replace soon.

But as JK shows, they can (and do) drop in price pretty quick, and once laser or LED illuminator version hit, current 1080p bulb PJ used values will drop like a rock. Think of what happened to 720p PJ prices when the new 1080’s came out. So I need to factor that in.

On a cost per hour, my current CRT (if sold for 800 - $1K) would have cost me about $0.60/hr. Which is pretty good compared to the $2+/hr most digital owners go through if upgrading every two years or so.

If I go with an RS2, it would be to stick with for at least 4years. By then one would hope any new tech was well established and tuned. But even DILA has taken a good seven+ years to reach the maturity level found in the RS2, which now truly competes with (and surpasses in many areas) the tech it was supplanting.

Hey guys, just two days ago I purchased a slightly used/demo RS-1 from the projector forum at AVS. I don't know if you guys noticed the sale, but it didn't last more than a day! …
JonFo, in the case that this dream of mine doesn't work out (small chance), I would need to unload it. If you are interested, I'd gladly sell it to you, our esteemed guru....

JK, be happy to help, Sold! (if you don’t want it).

See, that’s where my head was at over this. Rich has an RS1 and thinks its way better than what he saw at my place. But I still want RS2++ levels of performance. So this would make a great stop gap.

Anyways, Im excited! First projector = SUPERSIZED HT!

p.s. Almost forgot, I noticed an AVS sales rep say that this will definitely not be the first projector "firesale". Jon, I might consider checking in to that site on a regular basis. Just bookmark the site, and take a daily 1 second glance at the stickies is all that is required. Could save you $1000s! Cheers.

Hey, you will love front projections results. But much like a boat owner, the best two days are the first and the last

Thanks for the tips on the AVS advice. I go there almost daily (I clearly hang out here waaay to much )

Cheers,

 

[JonFo]

Jon,
I thought the G70 does not have the capacity to do 1080 on a 16:9 without scaling; only the G90 can. I know my D50 can only do up to 720, and does it beautifully with SD with the aid of a Moome card.

Hi Ben,

The G70 can't do 1080P, but it does fully resolve a wonderful 1080i

Via the Moome (latest edition, with 1.3HDMI and gamma correction), I'm able to get a very sharp 1080i with scan lines visible (when correctly focused).

On 720P (from the PS3, on games), it's extremely sharp.

I just got a new Pioneer Kuro Plasma for my wife's system, and boy, talk about sharp! those things are amazing.
But for watching movies, there's still something about the CRT 'look' that I enjoy.

I'm thinking this is why some of us like the 'tube' sound vs the (IMHO) cleaner SS sound (not to start another SS vs tubes thread here, just using it as analogy )
Digital PJ's highlight some of the source material shortcomings as well as contributing their own set of 'colorations'. But those are becoming less and less objectionable. And once one gets used to them, they probably don’t really matter.

 

[jk319]

JK, be happy to help, Sold! (if you don’t want it).

Cool. I bet you you now have mixed feelings, "I hope JK loves his new system, I hope it doesn't work out, I hope he loves his new system, I hope it doesn't work out..." Just kidding, I am glad for any mutually beneficial arrangement!

See, that’s where my head was at over this. Rich has an RS1 and thinks its way better than what he saw at my place. But I still want RS2++ levels of performance. So this would make a great stop gap.

Well, some people's ceiling is another man's floor. LOL. Somehow, I bet your floor can be extremely pleasing to some! Oh, just ribbin' ya. Er, more like ribbin myself.

Hey, you will love front projections results. But much like a boat owner, the best two days are the first and the last

I am sorry to say I don't understand this at all. I'd love to have a boat though! LOL. My brother and I once flippin thru some boating magazines, dreaming away when we could split the costs on a small one...

Thanks for the tips on the AVS advice. I go there almost daily (I clearly hang out here waaay to much )

Cheers,

no problem at all, I've said it before, it's always nice to be able to pitch in something here once in a while to all of you experienced folks. See ya around.

 

[benleeys]

Hi Ben,

The G70 can't do 1080P, but it does fully resolve a wonderful 1080i

Via the Moome (latest edition, with 1.3HDMI and gamma correction), I'm able to get a very sharp 1080i with scan lines visible (when correctly focused).

On 720P (from the PS3, on games), it's extremely sharp.

I just got a new Pioneer Kuro Plasma for my wife's system, and boy, talk about sharp! those things are amazing.
But for watching movies, there's still something about the CRT 'look' that I enjoy.

I'm thinking this is why some of us like the 'tube' sound vs the (IMHO) cleaner SS sound (not to start another SS vs tubes thread here, just using it as analogy )
Digital PJ's highlight some of the source material shortcomings as well as contributing their own set of 'colorations'. But those are becoming less and less objectionable. And once one gets used to them, they probably don’t really matter.

Yea, Jon, you're absolutely correct.

Your G70 should be able to do things better than my D50 which at 720p is at its resolution limit displayed at 16:9. But I hate to see scan lines, so I do not like to use 1080i.

I bet if you are operating a 9" unit like the G90, you will not be considering a digital unit at this time. To me, that is nirvana for video. Only disadvantage is its size.

Having said that, I think it is pointless to wait for something better if one is set on changing (I won't say upgrading). There is always a new and better unit on the market almost every other month. There is no end to it. The best time to change is right now, anytime.

 

[Rich]

Having said that, I think it is pointless to wait for something better if one is set on changing (I won't say upgrading). There is always a new and better unit on the market almost every other month. There is no end to it. The best time to change is right now, anytime.

While I believe this is true in a general sense, it doesn't quite apply to this situation. JonFo isn't convinced yet that change is what he wants, and he is not just looking for the next better model. He is waiting for a new technology (pj illuminators that are non-incandescent based) to come to market. Like DLP a few years ago, this technology is coming but it will take a few years for them to get it right and get it cost-effective.

In the meantime, though, what's the big deal with spending a few hundred bucks on a bulb every couple of years? That seems like a minor annoyance to me. Kind of like replacing tubes every few years in a tube amp.

 

[jfm]

i understand why one would like to stay with a crt. my neighbor has one and i'm always amazed by how bright -- yes, bright -- his image is, and how deep the colors are. he has an nec crt; i have an nec dlp.

and, yes, blacks. this becomes quite apparent when watching no-light scenes. for example, in kill bill 2, there's that scene inside the box underground. i've seen that in all sorts of pjs, and the screen is always somewhat gray, and there's a bit of light. in the crt theater, it seems like you're inside the box, underground. total darkness.

of course, my friend has to endure some pains, like frequent calibration, and futile efforts to connect to an hdmi source with various cards and adaptors.

now, about pj bulbs. i am caught between buying my 3rd bulb and getting a new pj. the annoying thing is not so much that i have to change the bulb more frequently than i expected, but that the brightness is never constant; it's always gradually (and not so gradually) diminishing.