Upgrading to summits?

[discocarp]

I think I'm more confused than ever, yet more knowledgeable! Sounds strange, but here I am! Thanks for everyone's input. I've learned so much.

Ok, here's what I've decided and why.

I want the 2.1 listening setup to be near perfect. Its obvious from reading all the replies here that this is largely an issue of personal taste and experience. I don't have the experience yet. I am going to hold off on the summits and the ultra-krells.

I'm going to put this money into our home theater instead. Right now I have a pair of clarities and a dynamo. I was planning on getting a center/rears when we move this year and have the wiring. Instead, I'm going to move the dynamo off to another room or maybe sell it. I'll make the clarities my rears. I'll buy: 2xvantages, a descent i, and a stage. This is a little cheaper than my original speaker budget (which was 2xsummits plus a descent). I'm going to buy a krell surround unit (who knows which one, I haven't been looking at these at all yet). Suddenly, great HT and good music (but plenty of room to improve it).

This lets me play with some amps on the vantages/descent slowly and carefully to figure out what I really like for 2.1. They aren't summits, but I can't imagine being disappointed in the short term with the vantages. I still plan on the summits in a year or two for a dedicated listening area, but hopefully I'll be a lot smarter by then about my personal tastes.

The hardest part of all this will be waiting. I am waiting to get the HT setup until we are in our new house in august/september. I don't have the wires now and won't until we're in the new house.

How does the plan sound?

 

[twich54]

Is this thread over, I've got a headache ! hey doctor Joey.....got any asprin ?

Seriously though, did you mention your room size, if 250sq ft or less, than I'll bet you will be more than pleased with the Vantage's.

Good Luck, post up some pics to share !

 

[discocarp]

Unfortunately, this is not a dedicated HT room. Its an open living room with a kitchen and nook behind it. The actual family room part is 250 sq ft but the area behind it is about the same size. We will have a dedicated music listening area, but not HT. It will all be 11'4" ceilings.

 

[karma]

exactly...with the B&Ws (not what I would generally consider "revealing" ...at least in my auditions) there's a great synergy with the krells, I'm sure. A naturally revealing speaker like logans can get too much of a good thing from the same amp. Again...saying the krells are great amps...but not necessarily the best match for logan panels.

But, again, if you listen and like the sound, then they're great for you. I've heard them, and wasn't impressed. I just think there are better options for the same money, especially on the used market.

HI,
I woukd agree to a point. Again, I am an ARC tube sort of guy. I would never put SS amps of any brand on my CLS's now. But in the past I have driven my CLS's with my Levinson No. 23 amp and the sound was excellent. I think my Krell's are just as good but somewhat different; more neutral and punchier but overall very similar.

When it comes to revealing, it's pretty hard to beat electrostatics generallly. Conventional speakers just don't cut it in that area of performance when compared to stats. But within the world conventional speakers, I think the new B&W 800 series speakers are wonderful. They have talents that even stats can't match. Examples: dynamic range, bass and extreme high frequencies. So, it's a trade off.

I have not hooked up my Krell equipment to my CLS's because it's such a hassle in my set-up and I'm not really that curious. I wish now that I had done so so I had direct experience to offer. My suspician is the Krell's would sound very good. I am not willing to write them off with stat's. But I might find out you are right.

What I really think is you just don't like Krell's with any speakers for what ever reason. If that's the case, we are really discussing taste. And you know what is said about taste: There ain't no accountin' for taste.

BTW, you have not filled in your profile so it's very difficult to determine the context of your comments.

Sparky

 

[HsvToolFool]

Hmm, I must be going senile in my old age for I have absolutely no idea how I was side-stepping the issue. I remember constructing my argument carefully by using the "world-class, reference-level" Krell FPB-series to illustrate the part-counts affecting the sonic signature. I deliberately used your Krell FPB-300C and a hypothetical FPB-150 (if one exists) in my example and that is still considered side-stepping?

"Ah ha! Pronoun trouble."

Your first post in this thread listed several $5K amps as
alternatives to the FPB series. After I pointed out that
these amps were at a lower level of performance than
Krell's FPB-series (yet cost the same in this case), you
then defended those amp's relative performance based
on their lower power ratings.

Or so I thought.

Based on your above statement, I presume that you are
not placing those amps equivalent to the FPB-series
performance-wise. Instead, you were making an abstract
argument that a lower amp can sound better than a higher
power amp.

Well, sure. The smaller amp just has to perform better.
So what? I don't see how that's germane to this thread.
Are there $5K (retail) amps which perform better than
the FPB-series? No. At least not yet. I can say with some
certainty that someday there will be $5K amps that
perform at the FPB-level and higher. I have high hopes
for digital amp technology.

While we're on the subject of expense and and you brought up the issue of cost-no-object...

Like it or not, cost is a factor in final performance. Of
course, a linear price-to-perfomance relationship does not
exist and I didn't infer that. I value quality gear despite
its price, not because of it. Price (and wattage) do not
define a component's audio-quality... and the FPB-series
are better than the amps you listed.

So, according to your argument "$5k amps do not perform at the level of $10k amps" then it must follow that "$10k amps do not perform at the level of $20k amps", correct?

Assuming two top-tier amps are similar enough to make
meaningful comparisons (for example, an 18W Lamm and
a Halcro dm88 have different asperations), then objective
judgements cannot be made between them. Picking a
"winner" between the Krell Evolution One and Pass XA160
monoblocks is entirely subjective.

On the other hand, making objective comparisons between
different classes is easier because performance-levels
grow farther apart. None of the five amps you listed are
close enough performance-wise to make choosing an FPB
over them difficult.

 

[HsvToolFool]

Again...saying the krells are great amps...but not necessarily the best match for logan panels.

But, again, if you listen and like the sound, then they're great for you. I've heard them, and wasn't impressed. I just think there are better options for the same money, especially on the used market.

Let's be clear exactly which model you mean. Like any
brand, there's Krell and then there's KRELL. The budget
minded KAV-series were never top-tier amps, although
the new KAV-x250 series are reportedly much smoother.

Now if a Martin Logan and FPB system didn't impress you,
the amps weren't the problem. Any FPB is a great match
for ML stats.

 

[HsvToolFool]

I want the 2.1 listening setup to be near perfect. Its obvious from reading all the replies here that this is largely an issue of personal taste and experience. I don't have the experience yet. I am going to hold off on the summits and the ultra-krells.

Excellent move. And yes, ask five audiophiles and get six
answers. I was so excited when I found out you could
budget an FPB or the new Evo 402 because those amps
are so great you can't go wrong. It's all personal opinion
as what amps are "Better" at that point.

Summits don't appear on the used market often, but
lower models like Vantage often do because people
upgrade to Summit. Something to consider if you plan to
upgrade within 24 months. Typical resale value for used
audio gear is perhaps 40% to 50% retail, closer to 60%
to 70% if the model has just been released and is in high
demand.

Vantage dark cherry $3,599

Vantage sealed/new/black $4,300

The BAT cd player I just bought retails for $8,500. I paid
just over $3,200 shipped and it's only three years old.
Even if it breaks or needs new tubes soon and I have to
pay for repairs, I still come out way ahead. That's the kind
of deal I look for when buying used gear.

But look at it from the other guy's perspective. How would
you like to take $5,000 in depreciation loss three years
later? Owie!

 

[Spike]

Mission accomplished!

Rich & Brian,
I had an interesting time exchanging ideas with you guys. Sheesh, I had to work really hard to come up with the counterpoints to your posts. Not to mention the physical labor involved in rewiring my system for those measurements In the end, the post that made everything worthwhile (in my book) was from discoarp:

I think I'm more confused than ever, yet more knowledgeable! Sounds strange, but here I am! Thanks for everyone's input. I've learned so much.

Its obvious from reading all the replies here that this is largely an issue of personal taste and experience.

This lets me play with some amps on the vantages/descent slowly and carefully to figure out what I really like for 2.1. They aren't summits, but I can't imagine being disappointed in the short term with the vantages. I still plan on the summits in a year or two for a dedicated listening area, but hopefully I'll be a lot smarter by then about my personal tastes.

Isn't it great that discocarp was patient enough to read through our long exchanges AND that he was able to grasp the point that there are many choices and he needs to audition for himself to figure out what he's really after. As for the differences between our viewpoints, who cares? As long as we got the point across that he needs to...trust his ears to make his own decisions! :rocker: I'm sure we don't agree on lots of things audio, but we'll just have to wait for some other threads to continue our...battles, Oops, I meant...friendly exchange! Just kidding.

Discocarp,
Wise decision on your part.

:cheers:
Spike

 

[Craig]

IMHO, the Summits deserve (and demands) the best quality upstream electronics. They will ruthlessly expose any weakness of the upstream electronics if you're not paying attention to system synergy.

This is very good advice from Spike. Krell amps are also highly revealing which is a good thing as long the upstream components are of high quality. Krell amps (and ML speakers) often get a bad rap and take the blame for revealing a weakness in a less than optimum source component.

I'm mainly prefer tube gear but I also like the precise detail of Krell and their bass performance is tough to match let alone out perform. The downside of Krell is that it runs hot (class A) and it's expensive. At 50 percent off I'd go with Krell.

 

[Joey_V]

I'm sure we don't agree on lots of things audio, but we'll just have to wait for some other threads to continue our...battles, Oops, I meant...friendly exchange! Just kidding.
:cheers:
Spike

This is EXACTLY why MLO is my favorite forum on the web, bar none.

I enjoyed reading the thread, too, guys!

Joey :cheers:

 

[Rich]

Isn't it great that discocarp was patient enough to read through our long exchanges AND that he was able to grasp the point that there are many choices and he needs to audition for himself to figure out what he's really after. As for the differences between our viewpoints, who cares? As long as we got the point across that he needs to...trust his ears to make his own decisions! :rocker: I'm sure we don't agree on lots of things audio, but we'll just have to wait for some other threads to continue our...battles, Oops, I meant...friendly exchange! Just kidding.

Spike,

Gee, for someone so wrong on so many points, you really nailed this one.

Just kidding, of course. I, too, enjoyed the debate. At some point, it all comes down to a matter of personal taste, and even that evolves over time as we gain more experience with different products in different situations. The beauty of this forum is that we can vigorously debate these ideas in a civil manner and remain friends afterward. And if anyone actually learns anything in the process, well that makes it all the much better.

Cheers :cheers:

 

[discocarp]

You guys are so quick to end the thread. Did I wear you out?

I need help with the surround system now! Should I start a new thread?

 

[Rich]

Nah, we don't need a new thread, and we sure aren't worn out.

I'm going to put this money into our home theater instead. Right now I have a pair of clarities and a dynamo. I was planning on getting a center/rears when we move this year and have the wiring. Instead, I'm going to move the dynamo off to another room or maybe sell it. I'll make the clarities my rears. I'll buy: 2xvantages, a descent i, and a stage. This is a little cheaper than my original speaker budget (which was 2xsummits plus a descent). I'm going to buy a krell surround unit (who knows which one, I haven't been looking at these at all yet). Suddenly, great HT and good music (but plenty of room to improve it).
How does the plan sound?

We have lots of energy when it comes to helping other people spend their money. I'll throw out my opinion here (and I'm sure everyone will agree with me. ).

Your original plan was to purchase a pair of Summits and a Descent, with an emphasis on two channel sound. Now you are looking at holding off on high end two channel and emphasizing home theater. You still get a discount on the Krell's and also, I guess, the Martin Logans.

I still think that the Summit is the best speaker you can get from Martin Logan (at the present) and you will be happier with it over the long term for both music and movies than you will with the Vantages. I know I made this choice once between the Prodigies and the Ascents and although I have enjoyed the Ascents I have always regretted not spending the extra bucks on the Prodigies.

With the Summits, you really don't need the Descent, so the money you would spend on the Descent will go toward purchasing a Stage center channel. You already have Clarities for the rears and if you wish you can use the Dynamo for the LFE output of your home theater preamp.

With this setup, you start off with a top-of-the-line speaker system for 5.1 home theater surround sound and still have the best main speakers in place for high end two channel sound, for whenever you wish to upgrade your electronics down the road. Remember, these speakers should last you twenty years or more if you treat them well.

As for electronics, you could go with the Krell Theater Amplifier Standard, which puts out 200 wpc into 8 ohms and 400 wpc into 4 ohms with five channels of output. This amp would easily and cleanly drive your entire home theater system. You could mate this to a Krell Showcase Processor Pre/Pro, which looks to be an excellent Home Theater Processor. Add a high quality source, and I think you will have a superb home theater system that also sounds darn good on two channel music. Later, if you want to improve the two channel sound, you could add a tube preamp into the loop for excellent stereo listening.

Obviously, this is just one route to take among many. There are many Krell components and you should audition them to make sure you like the "Krell" sound and to understand the differences between different price points. There are also many other manufacturers out there that others would suggest you consider, although with your discount on the Krell I don't personally think you will do better for the money. Just my opinion, of course.

I think you will be happy with your speakers whichever way you go, but I would put a lot of thought (and auditioning time) into the decision of whether to go with the Vantages and Descent over the Summits.

 

[Pcar928fan]

With the Summits, you really don't need the Descent, so the money you would spend on the Descent will go toward purchasing a Stage center channel. You already have Clarities for the rears and if you wish you can use the Dynamo for the LFE output of your home theater preamp.

With this setup, you start off with a top-of-the-line speaker system for 5.1 home theater surround sound and still have the best main speakers in place for high end two channel sound, for whenever you wish to upgrade your electronics down the road. Remember, these speakers should last you twenty years or more if you treat them well.

As for electronics, you could go with the Krell Theater Amplifier Standard, which puts out 200 wpc into 8 ohms and 400 wpc into 4 ohms with five channels of output. This amp would easily and cleanly drive your entire home theater system. You could mate this to a Krell Showcase Processor Pre/Pro, which looks to be an excellent Home Theater Processor. Add a high quality source, and I think you will have a superb home theater system that also sounds darn good on two channel music. Later, if you want to improve the two channel sound, you could add a tube preamp into the loop for excellent stereo listening.

I agree w/ Rich's suggestions here, though I don't pretend to know anything about those specific Krell products.

You will want SOMETHING for the LFE and if I read it correctly you already have a Dynamo so you might wait on the Descent i, but I would plan to add one in the future. Also you might want to go 7.1 in the long run and I would then buy and even better 2 channel amp for the Summit pair and use the 5 channel amp for everything else...that is what I did, but with Rotel gear as I did not have an in to get me cheap Krell (or anything else for that matter) stuff!

You are in a great position where you will buy this stuff use it for awhile and if you don't like it or if you just want to upgrade you will STILL sell it for MORE than you paid for it! What a spot to be in! That happens all the time with folks in the Hi-Fi industry, they will get something and enjoy the heck out of it FOR YEARS and then sell it for more than they paid! NICE!

Best of luck and I look forward to how this turns out as well as pictures of the set up!

 

[edwinr]

I'm very happy with the Summit's low end clout when I watch movies. I've got all the low frequency rumble and punch that I need. But movies only take up around 20% of my system use, so a dedicated sub isn't necessary for me. I can see though, in a more specialised HT setup, a sub would be good. It's not that the Summits don't go low enough - they do - but a dedicated sub is easier to dial in and out for movies. Originally when I first got my Summits, I tuned them for maximum punch in movies. But when I switched to music, they sounded too bass heavy. Now I have tuned them to work best with music, and movies have only suffered a little.