Unhappy with new Logans

[Feltran]

As some of you may recall, I've been planning on getting a whole Martin Logan home theater system, but in the meantime I decided to pick up a pair of Purity speakers for 2 channel listening, hoping I could save some space etc. Let me start with saying I don't have as discriminating of hearing as some of you, and I'm somewhat new to this, so I may not give the greatest descriptions of sound.

Unfortunately, I'm pretty unhappy with the sound they're generating. They are not currently paired with a subwoofer, and I imagine doing that could only help, but I'm not confident it would really fix the problem, so I'm not sure I want to invest any more money. Also, the speakers are currently hooked up using a line level connection, which I realize is not ideal. Now, on to the problem.

When the music is playing, and there are only higher treble sounds (when only the electrostatic panel is being used), it is loud, sharp, and sounds fantastic. However, when the cones kick in, the music gets softer and muddier. There is also a midrange sound that it seems like it can't replicate properly at all, and it gets very quiet on a particular range of notes. In short, it's almost like someone is playing with the volume knob when the pitch changes.

Is there a simple solution to this? Would adding a subwoofer really fix the problem? Are the speakers defective, perhaps? The Logans I heard in the store (Sources running off of a Yamaha receiver) sounded really good to me, but my Purities, while sometimes able to create great sounding notes, have me wondering if Martin Logan isn't going to work for me.

Thanks in advance for any help or input.

 

[MotorToad]

That's weird. It definitely sounds like a problem I wouldn't be happy with at all, much less when buying a proud brand as this. I know MartinLogan's traditional speakers take a long, long time to break in. Everyone I've seen on this forum that has bought new, replaced a panel, or even replaced a woofer has reported taking days or even weeks to feel that their speakers are right again. perhaps some time is all they need.

One thing to check for is room acoustics and speaker placement. My old system is at a friend's house with a huge living room and HORRIBLE acoustics. You can walk around the room and hear different parts of the audio spectrum fade in and out. Also, you can hear the TV more clearly in the kitchen than the living room right in front of it (it's one of those semi-open plans with an 8' wall but a sloped 12-18' ceiling).

These speakers may also need to be a bit further out from the wall than you're used to. If the rear wall reflections meet your ears too soon your brain can get very confused, but a longer delay will be easily accepted as an echo.

Another thing is how long your interconnects are. The one thing I don't like about the Purity design is that it usually requires very long line-level RCA runs. These are low voltage signals and very susceptible to resistance and interference. It's entirely possible your preamp simply can't push the cable with a clean signal.

I'd first recheck the manual and make sure I have any switch settings right. Walk around the room and see if your problems are the same everywhere, you might be shocked by what changes in different parts of the room. Then try the line-level inputs if that's possible, it shouldn't take much of an amp at all to drive these, since they use the internal amp anyway.

I'm bummed you're not happy with them. I was really excited about these speakers when I first saw them. On paper they look like a great step from McSpeakerTown boxes to the (sometimes difficult) world of electrostatic magic.

 

[amey01]

As some of you may recall, I've been planning on getting a whole Martin Logan home theater system, but in the meantime I decided to pick up a pair of Purity speakers for 2 channel listening, hoping I could save some space etc. Let me start with saying I don't have as discriminating of hearing as some of you, and I'm somewhat new to this, so I may not give the greatest descriptions of sound.

Unfortunately, I'm pretty unhappy with the sound they're generating. They are not currently paired with a subwoofer, and I imagine doing that could only help, but I'm not confident it would really fix the problem, so I'm not sure I want to invest any more money. Also, the speakers are currently hooked up using a line level connection, which I realize is not ideal. Now, on to the problem.

When the music is playing, and there are only higher treble sounds (when only the electrostatic panel is being used), it is loud, sharp, and sounds fantastic. However, when the cones kick in, the music gets softer and muddier. There is also a midrange sound that it seems like it can't replicate properly at all, and it gets very quiet on a particular range of notes. In short, it's almost like someone is playing with the volume knob when the pitch changes.

Is there a simple solution to this? Would adding a subwoofer really fix the problem? Are the speakers defective, perhaps? The Logans I heard in the store (Sources running off of a Yamaha receiver) sounded really good to me, but my Purities, while sometimes able to create great sounding notes, have me wondering if Martin Logan isn't going to work for me.

Thanks in advance for any help or input.

OK, a few things, but first a question - to go ahead with the purchase, I assume you liked the sound of them at the dealer? Right? That being the case, your problem is one of three things (or most likely a combination).

1: Run in - the speakers need about 100 hours or so of burn-in time. Leave them playing for a week or so while you're out and things should sound altogether better next weekend.

2: Positioning - can you post a pic? Even if you do, we can only speculate on ideal positioning, so it is best you have a play with positioning yourself, listening carefully after each movement - move them away from all walls as this can cause boominess and slow down the bass. The panels don't like walls either. It may be that you also need to move your listening spot. Try to sit futher than an equilateral triangle. Keep the speakers from all walls (that is, both side walls and the rear wall). There should be a start. Report your progress.

3: Treating the room - once you get them as best as they can sound in your room, it may be that you need a few room treatments. MLs are more sensitive to the room in which they are placed than other speakers because of the dipole nature. No doubt that (acoustically at least) the dealer's room was pretty nigh on perfect. You might not be able to get that sort of sound, but you will get close with a little perseverance.

 

[roberto]

As some of you may recall, I've been planning on getting a whole Martin Logan home theater system, but in the meantime I decided to pick up a pair of Purity speakers for 2 channel listening, hoping I could save some space etc. Let me start with saying I don't have as discriminating of hearing as some of you, and I'm somewhat new to this, so I may not give the greatest descriptions of sound.

Unfortunately, I'm pretty unhappy with the sound they're generating. They are not currently paired with a subwoofer, and I imagine doing that could only help, but I'm not confident it would really fix the problem, so I'm not sure I want to invest any more money. Also, the speakers are currently hooked up using a line level connection, which I realize is not ideal. Now, on to the problem.

When the music is playing, and there are only higher treble sounds (when only the electrostatic panel is being used), it is loud, sharp, and sounds fantastic. However, when the cones kick in, the music gets softer and muddier. There is also a midrange sound that it seems like it can't replicate properly at all, and it gets very quiet on a particular range of notes. In short, it's almost like someone is playing with the volume knob when the pitch changes.

Is there a simple solution to this? Would adding a subwoofer really fix the problem? Are the speakers defective, perhaps? The Logans I heard in the store (Sources running off of a Yamaha receiver) sounded really good to me, but my Purities, while sometimes able to create great sounding notes, have me wondering if Martin Logan isn't going to work for me.

Thanks in advance for any help or input.

Hola. When you say you have a line connection, please explain us more. These speakers are fully powered and you do not need an extra amplifier to drive them. If you are using an amplifier, then you should connect it to the speaker binding posts. You are allow to use just an Ipod to drive them with no problem, or a computer. Hope this can help...
Roberto.

 

[tsmooth]

Level line coming from what? I would make sure the all the settings are correct on the source (check EQ if using an Ipod, receiver, or computer, etc.). If it is not that, not sure what the issue would be...

 

[Feltran]

Thanks for the feedback.

First, a little more about my set up. I have a temporary setup for these speakers right now (within a month, I'm planning to hook them up to different hardware in a different room), but currently I am playing music on my AppleTV, being sent to my TV via HDMI, and then to the speakers via high quality 3' RCA cables. The electrostatic panels are 40'' apart, and 24'' from the back wall. The speakers haven't been played nonstop, but so far I think have been used about 20 hours. The acoustics change significantly based on where in the room I am, but not in respect to the problem I've been having.

The main thing you guys said was about placement, and I feel I may have underestimated just how significant and sensitive acoustic placement could be. I moved one of the speakers about 2-3'' and my initial impression is that while it didn't eliminate the problem, it may have noticeably reduced it. I'm going to play around with placement a little more, and will let you guys know after I've listened to them a little bit more if I think that's the real culrpit.


EDIT: tsmooth, I think you may have helped me solve my problem. I had checked the sound settings quickly when I first set up the speakers, but after reading your post, I figured I should have a second look. The Sony TV that I'm passing the audio through has a feature called "Steady Sound" which is supposed to keep commercials from being too loud etc. I've just turned this feature off, and I'm going to listen now. It definitely sounds like it might have been causing problems.

 

[amey01]

Thanks for the feedback.

First, a little more about my set up. I have a temporary setup for these speakers right now (within a month, I'm planning to hook them up to different hardware in a different room), but currently I am playing music on my AppleTV, being sent to my TV via HDMI, and then to the speakers via high quality 3' RCA cables. The electrostatic panels are 40'' apart, and 24'' from the back wall. The speakers haven't been played nonstop, but so far I think have been used about 20 hours. The acoustics change significantly based on where in the room I am, but not in respect to the problem I've been having.

The main thing you guys said was about placement, and I feel I may have underestimated just how significant and sensitive acoustic placement could be. I moved one of the speakers about 2-3'' and my initial impression is that while it didn't eliminate the problem, it may have noticeably reduced it. I'm going to play around with placement a little more, and will let you guys know after I've listened to them a little bit more if I think that's the real culrpit.

It sounds like you're on the right track with placement then.

That being the case, I'd still check the source. Going through a TV is not ideal, but it shouldn't make it that bad. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that means your television is doing D/A conversion, right? Maybe it can make it that bad then. How about an RCA straight from the AppleTV to the speakers, rather than going via HDMI to the TV and from the TV to the speakers.

Of course, make sure all enhancements and EQs are turned off too.

...And I'm assuming your collection is in Apple Lossless or FLAC or something other than 128k MP3, right?

Keep trying with placement. You'll get there!

 

[Feltran]

Thank you all for your input. I'm now almost positive that the Steady Sound feature on the TV was causing the problem. I can't believe I didn't spot that sooner! I'm sorry I doubted Martin Logan.

Also, I would have liked to go directly from the AppleTV to the stereo, in fact, I tried it at first, since there is the new Remote app for the iPhone that allows you to control the AppleTV without a screen. Unfortunately, I quickly realized that the AppleTV itself has no volume control.

 

[FISH_MAN]

source,placement,and the room

If one of these things goes out of wack they seem to go down hill fast but when you get it right its pure bliss do not loose faith yet.I moved my speakers from one room to another and could of sworn I hade broken them beacuse of the room they sounded so different.when you start to get to know your speakers you can start to hear all the good and bad details they have hense the need to upgrade.do not get me wrong those are great speakers I have heard them they are also nice and heavy that is nice.

 

[Pcar928fan]

40" apart is WAY to close together to get any kind of serious feel for what is happening...

Let them break in and then gook them up to some REAL gear and see how it sounds...

I don't know anything about the Purity, but if they have half as good as the older line of ML gear then they are twice as good as 95% of the rest of the speakers out there! Aren't those some great stats! I just made'em up! LOL!

Good luck and hang in there!

 

[tsmooth]

Yes, you need to get those speakers 5 to 6 feet apart and a bit more from the back wall (if you can swing it). Also, mess with the toe-in so you are listening to the inner 1/3 of the panel (see flashlight technique on this site). Those two changes should help to dial in the sound to minimize room interaction.

I would pretty weary of passing an audio signal through a TV to your ML. People spend $xx,xxx amount of money on pre-amplifiers just for something to “pass” the signal through and control the volume. You would think it wouldn’t make much of a difference, but the TV will add a signature to the sound for better or worse (I am guessing worse).

These are all things to think about for the time being as you move to a more permanent setup. Your speakers have nowhere to go but up and I believe you will be happy as soon as you can dedicate the right components and area to them. What are you thinking about using for your source, preamp / receiver, etc?

 

[MOON]

Hi Feltran ,

The bass will come. New ML's need time to break in the woofer cones. I have experienced the same thing with new ML's.

As for your speaker positioning, they need to be further out than 2 feet from the back wall. Most people on this site, including myself have them around 5 ft off the wall behind tham. They need breathing room !! Also , your separation between the speakers should be more than 40 inches. A general rule of thumb is whatever the distance between the speaker, have your listenign seat ( your head ) twice that measurement away from the speaker.

 

[Nielsen]

Your Apple TV does have a pair of Audio Out jacks on its back so I would use these? You can check if it remembers a volume setting when switched off and back on. If it does you can use the Audio Out jacks on its back and connect these to the ML, should be a lot better.

 

[Feltran]

Thanks for the advice, guys. I don't think I'm going to be able to pull the speakers more than 24'' from the wall, but I may be able to do something to soften the back wall. Also, once I put them in the other room, they'll be roughly 76'' apart. I'm not completely sure if/how I'm going to be able to avoid passing through the TV, but I'll look into solutions that would work for me. I may ultimately decide to use these speakers for both 2 channel and home theater, because my understanding is that they'll perform better (relatively to their potential) with less expensive equipment than would the Vantages that I really want. Some day, I'd love to have a perfect system, but right now I'm working my way up the ladder. Now that I got them working properly, they're still a lot better than my old speakers, even though they are set up in a manner that is far less than ideal.

Your Apple TV does have a pair of Audio Out jacks on its back so I would use these? You can check if it remembers a volume setting when switched off and back on. If it does you can use the Audio Out jacks on its back and connect these to the ML, should be a lot better.

Unfortunately, the AppleTV doesn't have any volume settings at all, it's just supposed to use the TV volume control.

 

[Nielsen]

I might have a suggestion to improve your sound, but if possible try it first, and then return the product if you are not happy with it.
You can either get any old preamp pratically at no cost at E-Bay, and use that to "drive" your speakers.
The Apple TV rca out goes to a line in on the preamp, and the outputs connects to the speakers.
Otherwise, if you have music in Lossless quality, regularly use headphones, and would like an external Digital to Analog converter to improve the sound quality you might want to check out for instance the Zhaolo D2,5 dac.
Its a dac, a preamp, and a headphone amp in one box.
http://www.obadimports.com/catalog/item/4377355/4344428.htm

However, if you decide to go for a home theater receiver, with HDMI in and out (Inn from Apple TV, and Out goes on to the TV) then you can drive the Purity from the Front Pre Out terminals on the receiver (make sure you get a receiver with preouts!) and the rest of the speakers with the receivers internal amplifier.
Good luck....

 

[vinodk]

I agree. Any inexpensive preamp will bring the magic out of Puritys. They do need a break-in time.

 

[lpaudio2]

why not look for a Musiland MD10. Its got a gain control, and great sound quality to boot! I do find that preamp sounds better.... Generally I found even the airport express via optical to be pretty grainy and bad sounding.

My sources are

Powerbook g4 1.5ghz (napping off) /AppleLossless -> Belkin silver USB-> trends UD 10.1 -> Audioquest VDM1 -> Musiland MD10

The sound quality of this setup beats just about anything I can find. A cec 5100z player, and a Audio Research CD2.