Leporello
Well-known member
Point of clarification: you said both panels are doing it, right? You said "panels", plural, in your OP. Therefore, swapping interfaces is not an available troubleshooting option, right?
Ticking CLS II - lets make it sing!
- Thread starter Don Camillo
- Start date
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Yes. The problem with the interface that stopped working was the diodes that were bad plus the ones that had bad solder connections.
The caps and resistors along with wiring was an elective choice.
Don Camillo
Well-known member
Thanks a lot for your reply's guys! I really appreciate all the help!
I am from the Netherlands btw, and my room is pretty dry.
English isnt my language so it could read strange sometimes. And the electrostatic interface and how they work are pretty new to me. The Apogees are more simple with its normal crossovers.
Oh the upgrading part Brad did was also something I thought about doing some time.. but first see if I can get them right and see if I love em that much...
Because I have heard a lot in the past decades at shows and so and know there isnt a perfect speaker... But I love open baffles.
Okay on topic. I did a slow vacuum cleaning today and noticed some holes in the parts that look like tape on the foil. I will upoad some pics.
Although they both ticked, one always ticked sooner (and plays) a bit louder!
So to test I changed left and right. And now the left (which is the right speaker) ticks definitly more... and center is now better. That one has the holes on the "tapes".
I will test with lights off where I can see a spark...
The foil doenst look dirty but if it doesnt improve I will try the washing. Thanks all for motivating.
I am gonna check it without the Dac.
The interface I will check later. I think its good to check for the soldering in there too indeed.
Oh the ticks occur at around 65dB, which isnt that loud...
I am from the Netherlands btw, and my room is pretty dry.
English isnt my language so it could read strange sometimes. And the electrostatic interface and how they work are pretty new to me. The Apogees are more simple with its normal crossovers.
Oh the upgrading part Brad did was also something I thought about doing some time.. but first see if I can get them right and see if I love em that much...
Because I have heard a lot in the past decades at shows and so and know there isnt a perfect speaker... But I love open baffles.
Okay on topic. I did a slow vacuum cleaning today and noticed some holes in the parts that look like tape on the foil. I will upoad some pics.
Although they both ticked, one always ticked sooner (and plays) a bit louder!
So to test I changed left and right. And now the left (which is the right speaker) ticks definitly more... and center is now better. That one has the holes on the "tapes".
I will test with lights off where I can see a spark...
The foil doenst look dirty but if it doesnt improve I will try the washing. Thanks all for motivating.
I am gonna check it without the Dac.
The interface I will check later. I think its good to check for the soldering in there too indeed.
Oh the ticks occur at around 65dB, which isnt that loud...
Don Camillo
Well-known member
The holes in the "tape" which seem to be on the powder coated frame, not on the foils...:
One pic is without holes, and the others with holes...
Is this real bad??
Both speakers have it...
One pic is without holes, and the others with holes...
Both speakers have it...
The tape is used for tuning the panels. It is on all of the CLS panels I have seen. Yours is definitely deteriorated.
There was another member here that carefully removed the tape one small piece at a time. I don't remember what he used to pull the pieces out through the holes.
That is clearly the issue you are having. I don't know if you could somehow carefully apply a glue through the perf holes to try to attach it to the mylar.
You don't really have many choices. Pull the panels apart and repair one side at a time.
It's not good which ever you decide.
I would reach out to the person that repairs panels and see what he suggests.
Good Luck keep us updated.
There was another member here that carefully removed the tape one small piece at a time. I don't remember what he used to pull the pieces out through the holes.
That is clearly the issue you are having. I don't know if you could somehow carefully apply a glue through the perf holes to try to attach it to the mylar.
You don't really have many choices. Pull the panels apart and repair one side at a time.
It's not good which ever you decide.
I would reach out to the person that repairs panels and see what he suggests.
Good Luck keep us updated.
Don Camillo
Well-known member
Ahh okay, so thats causing the spark sounds...
I listened to the DAP on Aux and noticed I could play louder before it ticked.. at around 73 dB, which is pretty loud... I am alnost 50 and dont listen real loud anymore... also trying to be easy on the ears to keep em good as long as possible.
I will ask the panel guy and see what is possible.
Thanks!
Grtz from Holland,
Don Camillo
I listened to the DAP on Aux and noticed I could play louder before it ticked.. at around 73 dB, which is pretty loud... I am alnost 50 and dont listen real loud anymore... also trying to be easy on the ears to keep em good as long as possible.
I will ask the panel guy and see what is possible.
Thanks!
Grtz from Holland,
Don Camillo
Don Camillo
Well-known member
Leporello, (you) suggested to use another power inlet. This I couldnt easily do at the moment..
But, when listening to the DAP it didnt sound right... wayy to thin.. with no body. I thought maybe its my brandnew wire to the amp thats not broken in yet. But it made me wonder if my CLS didnt sound linear...
So I took a set of Apogees. The Duetta's were to heavy to handle alone so I took Caliper's (damn they are heavy too)...
The sound is much fuller with more bass, low mid and midbass and it made me doubt if my CLS's werent as linear as I thought... thus with panels that need to be replaced.
I just changed from a dedicated listening room to my living room when I got the CLS with all components, so I didnt have a reference here yet.... the bright sound could have been the new room... but its probably my CLS.
I knew the Caliper's I have were a bit to dark sounding, so they are opposits...
But if the CLS is more on the bright side, Is that a good thing or very bad?
Because I thought panels needed to be replaced if they lack clarity. Or am I wrong?
I will check another speaker tomorrow to find out more, but it could be these CLS will not be singing for a while....
But, when listening to the DAP it didnt sound right... wayy to thin.. with no body. I thought maybe its my brandnew wire to the amp thats not broken in yet. But it made me wonder if my CLS didnt sound linear...
So I took a set of Apogees. The Duetta's were to heavy to handle alone so I took Caliper's (damn they are heavy too)...
The sound is much fuller with more bass, low mid and midbass and it made me doubt if my CLS's werent as linear as I thought... thus with panels that need to be replaced.
I just changed from a dedicated listening room to my living room when I got the CLS with all components, so I didnt have a reference here yet.... the bright sound could have been the new room... but its probably my CLS.
I knew the Caliper's I have were a bit to dark sounding, so they are opposits...
But if the CLS is more on the bright side, Is that a good thing or very bad?
Because I thought panels needed to be replaced if they lack clarity. Or am I wrong?
I will check another speaker tomorrow to find out more, but it could be these CLS will not be singing for a while....
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I will do the same, my buzzing sounds are from this tape. I try to separate stators and repair it.
This tape is glued to stator or to the foil ?? on side where tape is on place I can put somethink between foil and back panel, on buzzing side I have this tape loosened from stator and touch to the foil.
The main thing to watch out for is tearing the membrane when you pull the front and back stator panel apart. Russ Knotts, a guy here in the US that redoes panels, told me he didn't think he could separate mine without tearing it. Some models used more double sided tape than others. I hope yours doesn't have as much tape as mine.
It is attached to the Mylar panel not the sator.
You may be able to carefully separate the sator from the foam tape at the edge. Place a few small wedges between the sator and foam and reach in with forceps and remove the pieces.
You might be able to vacuum or blow out the pieces of tape.
You may be able to carefully separate the sator from the foam tape at the edge. Place a few small wedges between the sator and foam and reach in with forceps and remove the pieces.
You might be able to vacuum or blow out the pieces of tape.
What Robert is saying is very true. It is a gamble for sure. If you damage them you still have the sators for the rebuild.
Don Camillo
Well-known member
It seems that we both have the same problem, although with Martynka it causes buzzing and with mine it causes (loud spark noise) ticking... probably because of the torn tape touching the foil.
I asked the panel guy in Holland, he said he didnt see this darker damping tape that I have before and thought about using a really strong vaccuum cleaner... (but maybe that could damage the foil idk) But he was going to ask a friend who has more experience in the older ML's if he has a quick but good solition.
I asked the panel guy in Holland, he said he didnt see this darker damping tape that I have before and thought about using a really strong vaccuum cleaner... (but maybe that could damage the foil idk) But he was going to ask a friend who has more experience in the older ML's if he has a quick but good solition.
Another thing to consider, even if you manage to get that lose tape out and end that fart sound, there is still another problem. The coating applied to the mylar wears off with age. The old coating needs to be cleaned off and then new applied. That's what Russ does.
If you don't replace the coating then your old panels lose many dB in loudness and the high frequencies are greatly reduced. Pulling that tape out does nothing for that.
If you don't replace the coating then your old panels lose many dB in loudness and the high frequencies are greatly reduced. Pulling that tape out does nothing for that.
Yes, I check it. More here :
https://www.martinloganowners.com/threads/cls-panel-repair-buzzing-resonance-sound.19206/
But we have:
- back stator
- mylar foil glued to back stator
- double side foam tape around
- front stator
If I use sharp wallpaper knife and cut foamtape along the edge of front stator... I don't want use power to separate it, I want to cut it.
But tape is on back side of mylar. Between back stator and mylar film. Mylar is glued to back panel.
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That mylar has to be stretched tightly on the stator too. If it gets loosened then I think that will ruin things too. I was told that Martin Logan uses a special very expensive machine that stretches the film.
Yes, I saw it.
I need to reglue tape to stator, it solve my problem.
If you look at the photos of @Don Camillo broken tape, you will see that this tape is glue to the stator. The same at my "good" side.
I need to reglue tape to stator, it solve my problem.
If you look at the photos of @Don Camillo broken tape, you will see that this tape is glue to the stator. The same at my "good" side.
Don Camillo
Well-known member
[QUOTE="If you look at the photos of @Don Camillo broken tape, you will see that this tape is glue to the stator. The same at my "good" side.
[/QUOTE]
Yes it indeed seems glued to the stator...
I talked to a guy today who had redone his ML speakers with new coat and also new foil.
The foil he bought is cheap, and the coating also cheap. But no original stuff, more DIY.
He made a table himself so he could stretch the foil and with try and error got it done. But it was a job for months to get it done right. And most money was for making the special table and tools.
Maybe your foil has also lost its tension a bit that could give the buzz. I dont know. Still learning the electrostatic speaker basics.
My damping or tuning tape is definitly detoriated and needs a fix. But my panels (or foils) sound really bright!!
So they could be good.... right?
But I also think they are a bit to bright or lack some low mids.... could that be caused by the broken tape? Or do the panels need a wash?
I am curious.....
[/QUOTE]
Yes it indeed seems glued to the stator...
I talked to a guy today who had redone his ML speakers with new coat and also new foil.
The foil he bought is cheap, and the coating also cheap. But no original stuff, more DIY.
He made a table himself so he could stretch the foil and with try and error got it done. But it was a job for months to get it done right. And most money was for making the special table and tools.
Maybe your foil has also lost its tension a bit that could give the buzz. I dont know. Still learning the electrostatic speaker basics.
My damping or tuning tape is definitly detoriated and needs a fix. But my panels (or foils) sound really bright!!
So they could be good.... right?
But I also think they are a bit to bright or lack some low mids.... could that be caused by the broken tape? Or do the panels need a wash?
I am curious.....
My foil has high tension. Sound before cleaning good with high, mids and bass without buzzing. After cleaning sounds not good... sounds awesome on highs and mids. More instruments separation, more space on stage, more air. I know that my tape was unglued when use shower. Now I know that I should put paper tape on stator in place where is "tuning" stripe. I took photo.
Tuning tape on side without buzzing :
tape is glued to stator, no vibration from it.
Tape from place where I here resonance:
Completly separated from stator and touching foil. When bass section starts play stripe start to vibrate and foil has sound distorsion.
I'm shure that here is source of my vibration. and buzzing resonance sounds.
After this what I heard before and after shower I know that it was good idea. Now I know that next time I should hide tuning stripes behind paper tape.
How dirty was the water when you washed the panels? We have several electrostatic air cleaner panels in the house and when I clean them off the water looks black!
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