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dcoyle

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Oct 23, 2009
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Location
7800' New Mexico
I post, therefore I am.

I built Sanders estats, 15 years ago. They were a revelation, but I couldn't flatten the treble eq without an amp more powerful amp than I had, and when driven loudly, there are problems with voltage breakdown in thin air at 7800', where I live.

I determined to build some cells with wider spacing and collected parts for an active load direct drive tube amp, built and tested the 2Kv2 power supply and decided "maybe not".

Recently, a friend forced me to buy some Quest estat cells. I want to try them with the passive factory xover and then see if I can do an active eq at line level.

Cheers to all.

Dan
 
Did you purchase a Quest, or just parts of a Quest pair?

Is something broken that you are trying to fix, or do you just like to experiment?

Welcome to the forum, I have to say most of what you said is over my head.
 
Long version

hey Kach,

I bought the cells from a friend who had replaced the cells in a quest because the connection on one of them went south. I do modify almost everything, but it is for the result, not because I like to tinker.

Checking out the ML bulletin board, I see that discarded cells are fairly common, and I may need to run separate voltages on each to get them to perform at the same efficiency, even if they are not damaged in some way as yet unknown. I have two Quad polarizing voltage units (and output xformers) so the voltages could be set individually.

A diy magazine, Amateur Audio, had articles by Roger Sanders years ago on building estat cells. I built some and they had a passive eq shelf to bring the treble up. All stats are big caps and their impedance goes low at high freqs, so they are hard to drive there. At that time I had a TVA 10 amp, with a pair of EL34's. Although a great design by a master (IMO) Tim de Paravincini, the 4000pf of each of the two cells was "tough" to drive.

What "tough" means is, as the charge on a capacitive load goes up from the electrons that the amp has already pushed in, less charge flows from a given output voltage of the amp. Tough to follow the input waveform.

A resistive load doesn't build up charge, so its "easy" to drive.

An inductive load, like a speaker voice coil, resists change, or flow of charge, so it takes more force to push charge through.


Re breakdown,at high altitudes: At 7800' there is only 3/4 of the air at sea level. I'm a retired high school physics teacher, and a standard demo we used to do is put an electric bell in a vacuum pump and evacuate it. The sound goes softer, but you also see the spark (where the contacts are making and breaking) get larger.

The Sander's estats were big flat panels of .062 aluminum, and you would real quickly see where the stators were the closest by the sparks. You could take a little allen wrench and pull the stator out there, but it provided a limit as to how loud they could get.

(High altitude also messes up bass alignments because the air mass in the port is less and so resonates at a higher frequency, while the speaker mass stays the same. The air damping the suspension resonance of the driver is also less.)

The 2kv2 power supply is freaking dangerous, and I decided I wasn't fastidious enough to be safe (avoid accidental contact) over the long, long course of developing a new amp.


Re active load, a tube works by allowing electrons to flow from the cathode, through the grid (which is tracking the music signal) and on to the anode/plate, drawn by the positive voltage of the plate.

In a transformer load, the high voltage on one end of the winding (or the center tap on a push/pull transformer) attracts the electrons flowing through its winds from the tube. The flow induces a current on the secondary, which drives the speaker.

On a resistor or inductor load, the resistor or inductor only pass so many electrons per second to the positive supply, so the amount of charge accumulated at the anode varies as the audio signal dumps more or less in and only a fixed amount leave. It is this force of these charges which drives the next device.

However, both resistors and chokes vary in the amount of electrons they accept/pass depending of the voltage difference at their terminals, so they are not perfect sinks/sources, (depending on whether you think in terms of classic positive current flow or electrons, I'm talking electron flow here for clarity).

Even more linear behavior can be had by using a tube as a load, hooked up to actively adjust to the conditions. The stacked arrangement also allows tubes with a given high voltage limit to operate in higher voltage supplies. (The heater, if it is separate from the cathode, also needs needs accommodations.)

Re direct drive: A tube amp has a step down transformer in its output, and an estat has a step up xfmr, so a direct drive at high voltage swings can obviate two transformers and their limitations of linearity and bandwidth, if the design gets it right.

Any less opaque?

Sorry you asked?

Dan
 
Dan,

Why would you have to be forced to buy the panels?

I find that quite bizarre.

And why would you choose to go on and on and on about technical estat details that very few can understand.

With all due respect, what's your point?

GG
 
I'm a retired high school physics teacher..........
Any less opaque?
Sorry you asked?
Dan

I see said the blind man.;)

I too have an old pair of stat panels (cells of an Aerius), I replaced them quite young and never fully understood why they lost efficiency and dulled away like they did. The replacement ones have lasted 15 years and I enjoy them as much as possible.

I once dreamt of using one or both of them to make a center channel speaker or surround speakers for HT use. I would look at the little ad in the back of Stereophile (a decade ago) and plan on ordering the required parts form the stat kit man.

Sounds like you have the chops to do what I put off.

May I make a suggestion? The panels may have more life left in them than you assumed, did the previous owner try to shower them before giving up and replacing them?

Read the PDF in this link:
http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=604&highlight=shower

After your clean them up you may find your project changing a little.

Most of what your said is still over my head, but I enjoyed the read, thanks for doing your best to explain it to me.

Sorry that I could not be more help, but you may research the links in this thread to obtain the resources you need for your undertaking. Interesting links to say the least.

Index of Speaker mods and audio repair services
http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6368
 
Have fun.

GG
Well, I guess I am.

Just became inspired enough to finally re-bias my EL-34 tubes on my power amp.

I mean if Dr. Science can build his own speaker using the old film of a Martin Logan I can turn a knob, right?

I guess that it helps that just a few days ago I was able to pick up the owners manual off the Golden Tube Audio Yahoo user group, but it's all in the timing.:cool:
 
short version

GG said:

"Dan,

Why would you have to be forced to buy the panels?

I find that quite bizarre."


Sometimes when people say things that are bizzare they don't mean them literally. It was a joke. My friend with the speakers was enthusiastic about me having them and I was reluctant to start struggling with estats, again.


GG said:

"And why would you choose to go on and on and on about technical estat details that very few can understand.

With all due respect, what's your point?

GG"


Sorry to bore you, GG, it was labeled "long version".

I thought maybe this was the place to share an interest in the "technical estat details that very few can understand."

My "point" was to post so my account would be activated, and I did that in the intro site by mentioning my interests in estats.

When a respondent said he didn't know what I was saying, I thought to attempt to share things that I found intersting or learned through some trouble.

Thanks for helping me shape up GG.

Dan
 
Dan,

I'm not here to help anyone "shape up".

I, like others, were confused regarding the purpose of your post.

No problems on this end.

Welcome and I hope you find the site interesting and helpful.

Gordon
 
TonePub

Hey TonePub,

I am in the dark as to what elicited your comment.

"Originally Posted by tonepub
Ummm, I thought this was a MartinLogan forum..."

Dan
 
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