The best system I have ever heard

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David Matz

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Justin's post on the Apogee rebuild gave me a crazy idea that I could do the same with some old Sound Labs. Well, I picked some very old ones up for pennies on the dollar, had the factory fix them up a bit, and all I can say is WOW! They are not even fully broken in yet, as the mylar needs to adjust to produce the bass, but I don't think the Spires are ever going back in.

The bass is already phenomenal and will get even better. I thought the Logans had a great midrange (and they do), but these have that extra inner detail (presented musically vs. in your face). Additionally, these are very forgiving on bad recordings. Although they are very transparent, they do not sound like a window through the recording. Sweet spot is the entire room. In essence, they sound like real music.

The rest of the system is CJ 350, CJ act 2.2, ayre c5-xe, running springs, transparent.

I'm not sure that it could get any better than this, but I think I will be contacting Brian for some new px technology panels that should make speakers even more dynamic.
 

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Excellent stuff, Dave... glad to have inspired you! I'm still waiting on the Apogees, but I am promised they'll turn up before Xmas.

There were some Soundlabs (A3s, I think) on ebay I nearly bought before I got keen on the Apogee idea. Was worried about maintaining them in the UK, though.

It's important to remember that newest doesn't always mean best. Hope the PX tech is a real improvement, but to some extent it might be worth asking yourself the question "if I really like these as they are, why change anything?". Because when they come back they will be different, I'm sure. The gamble you are taking is that they come back and for some reason, you actually prefered them as they stood.

Still, it's not as if I'm not taking a risk with the Duettas....;)
 
I'd say that with the components you've assembled, you're definitely at the end of the curve.

If I might ask, what did you pay for the Sound Labs? I've always been a big fan of their speakers and I always need another project.

Congrats!

And I totally agree with Justin. If you like it, stop and just enjoy...

Go buy some more music or take a vacation. Enjoy life at the top of the mountain...
 
Congratulations, David. They look to be A-1s. Thus begins what will likely be a long term love affair. Mine began about 10 years ago with the purchase of U-1s, with a couple of upgrades along the way including the PX technology.

A couple of suggestions. Try moving the Spires out from behind the Sound Labs to another place in the house, and center the TV between the speakers and on the wall. Improved imaging, etc. will result. The clutter on the coffee table is fine and is acoustically better than an empty table, especially since the top is glass. You might want to make sure there aren't things on the table that rattle or resonate...empty glasses, for example.

Good listening!
 
Nothing can replace the sound of full range stats!
 
Excellent stuff, Dave... glad to have inspired you! I'm still waiting on the Apogees, but I am promised they'll turn up before Xmas.

There were some Soundlabs (A3s, I think) on ebay I nearly bought before I got keen on the Apogee idea. Was worried about maintaining them in the UK, though.

It's important to remember that newest doesn't always mean best. Hope the PX tech is a real improvement, but to some extent it might be worth asking yourself the question "if I really like these as they are, why change anything?". Because when they come back they will be different, I'm sure. The gamble you are taking is that they come back and for some reason, you actually prefered them as they stood.

Still, it's not as if I'm not taking a risk with the Duettas....;)

Thanks, Justin. I do believe that the px panels are better sonically. Of course, if they change the tonality, I would not be interested, but I don't believe they do. Another reason to upgrade is that px is better from a longevity and reliability perspective. I posted the question on the Soundlab fan board, SLOG, but that is a more sleepy site than this, as they must be jamming their systems instead of surfing.

Additionally, my wife is letting me keep them in the living room. However, they will not stay there forever. They will go into a spare bedroom from time to time. I think the px technology comes in a narrower dispersion pattern, which can make them work well in a near field listening position.

If you see another pair in the UK, you should jump on them. You won't be disappointed.
 
I'd say that with the components you've assembled, you're definitely at the end of the curve.

If I might ask, what did you pay for the Sound Labs? I've always been a big fan of their speakers and I always need another project.

Congrats!

And I totally agree with Justin. If you like it, stop and just enjoy...

Go buy some more music or take a vacation. Enjoy life at the top of the mountain...


Thanks, Jeff. I have been following in your foot steps all along. It's not that I just bought everything you recommended, either. I auditioned and compared/ contrasted every piece of gear you mentioned against many contenders. We definitely have very similar tastes, so I think you will really like the Soundlabs.

I am a "value" player and like to find deals. The Soundlabs may be one of the best deals in audio. I paid a little over $3K for these, crated and shipped to Utah. These are monsters, so the crates and shipping are a huge part of the cost. The factory repaired the panels for a little over a grand. So for a price of used Summits or Spires, one can get one of the best speakers on Earth.

Apparently, a lot of people gave up on Soundlabs when they were having reliability issues due to faulty mylar and insulation. The px technology has resolved these issues. Many people, however, still have their speakers just sitting around. If you post a "Wanted" ad on audiogon, someone will respond.
 
Congratulations, David. They look to be A-1s. Thus begins what will likely be a long term love affair. Mine began about 10 years ago with the purchase of U-1s, with a couple of upgrades along the way including the PX technology.

A couple of suggestions. Try moving the Spires out from behind the Sound Labs to another place in the house, and center the TV between the speakers and on the wall. Improved imaging, etc. will result. The clutter on the coffee table is fine and is acoustically better than an empty table, especially since the top is glass. You might want to make sure there aren't things on the table that rattle or resonate...empty glasses, for example.

Good listening!

Thanks, Brian. I have been listening to these for 18 hours a day the last couple of days. It's too bad that my Frapin and the french press are not serving an acoustic purpose! They sure enhance the experience.
 
Nothing can replace the sound of full range stats!


That's for sure, C.A.P. One of the coolest things about the very large panels is that I can play them at barely audible levels not wake up my wife, and still get all of the musical detail. I hope my wife let's me keep these in the living room a long, long time.
 
Thanks, Justin. I do believe that the px panels are better sonically. Of course, if they change the tonality, I would not be interested, but I don't believe they do. Another reason to upgrade is that px is better from a longevity and reliability perspective. I posted the question on the Soundlab fan board, SLOG, but that is a more sleepy site than this, as they must be jamming their systems instead of surfing.

Additionally, my wife is letting me keep them in the living room. However, they will not stay there forever. They will go into a spare bedroom from time to time. I think the px technology comes in a narrower dispersion pattern, which can make them work well in a near field listening position.

If you see another pair in the UK, you should jump on them. You won't be disappointed.

Actually, it was and still is (!!!) a pair of M3s, whose price has dropped from £2800 to £1999. As I said, I don't think there is sufficient support for them here to make them practical, which is probably why they won't sell.

Obviously that doesn't mean they aren't great, though. Enjoy!

Out of interest, how much is the PX tech upgrade?
 
Wow! Those make the Spire look so tiny. I'm not sure the better half would want those in our living room but I'd still like to give them a listen.

Gordon
 
I have had about 80 hours on these now, and the bass is really starting to firm up. It's hard to believe that these things are still getting better! The factory recommends 200 hours on them. I am not a big believer in burn in time other than to psycho-acoustically get used to the speakers. However, for some reason I believe them, as they are pretty straight forward, and may not even believe in cables.

Even crappy cd's from the early 80's sound awesome. Jeff, as a classic rock fan, you will really appreciate how these will make your older rock cd's sound. Crappy Zeppelin and old Simon and Garfunkel recordings sound real! Of course, newer recordings such as Clapton/ Winwood are absolutely SUBLIME!!! Additionally, I can now play air guitar in any part of them room, as the sweet spot is HUGE. Not sure why you would want to wait until summer...

Justin, I am not sure exactly how much the new px panels cost, but I believe it may be 2 or 3 times as much as what you can pay for these speakers. However, the new panels include all new lattice work and insulation wiring. My rebuilt panels contain px mylar, so they have some px technology in them for a small fraction of the cost of a new panel. I would bargain them down a bit more and snatch them.


Soundwise, every event is now a musical performance. I think I found the Absolute Sound!!!!

Joey, Gordon, or anyone else: if you want to hear these, shoot me a pm.

I am running on fumes, and dont' want to type much. But another Soundlab owner, Duke LeJeune captured the experience of the Millennium 1 speakers (which sound identically to my A1's) perfectly:

The following is the text of an e-mail I sent to Roger West the day I received my first Sound Labs:
Dear Roger:
Has there been some mistake?
I ordered a pair of Millennium 1's, and instead it seems you have sent me a time machine/teleportation system.
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. Annie Haslam and Renaissance just left, and before them I enjoyed a visit from Jonny Lang and Joan Osborne (I got Jonny's autograph, too - wanna see it?)
Now, if I could just figure out how to calibrate the time machine, I'd like to see that girl I had a crush on back in algebra class, the one I was too chicken to ever talk to...
Okay, maybe they are speakers, after all. That still doesn't explain the autograph, though.
So anyway after Brett talked me through the assembly I figured better check to see that I got it right. I hooked the M-1's up to the only amp I had on hand, a bottom-of-the-line Adcom. For a preamp I hooked up my little Headroom headphone amp, being too eager to bother with the big Cello just for a sound check.
Well, the sound check has lasted about five hours now. I have honestly never enjoyed reproduced music so much. And, frankly, whenever I'd remember to, I was trying to find something not quite right. The whole sound field experience was so different from what I was used to, I ondered if something was out of place. But nothing musical was. I think I've figured it out, if you'll permit a digression...
Back when I was a kid, early 70's, I used to sit for hours by my dad's stereo, headphones on, recording my favorite songs off AM radio stations. Then one day I recorded a song off an FM station, in stereo. Brand new territory for me. When I played it back, it sounded way too different. I wasn't sure I liked this - it wasn't "natural" like I thought AM was. Not that it wasn't enjoyable, but it suddenly made my pile of AM-radio recordings seem dull and lifeless. I had too much time invested in those recordings. I rewound and recorded over the FM stereo recording - I just wasn't ready for such a big leap. In a few days I came around, and began all over again, this time recording only off of FM radio stations, because this stereo thing was pretty neat once you got used to it.
The difference in perspective I get with the M-1's dipole line source is comparable to the difference I got as a kid going from AM mono to FM stereo. It's that much of a leap. As I mentioned, I was trying to find something not quite right so that when I wrote you I could impress you with my audio prowess by pinpointing some little fault that only the designer would know about. I put on my harshest discs, I put on my dullest discs. I put on ones I don't even like, so I wouldn't get caught up in the rhythm. And I forgot what I was doing and instead enjoyed them all! I put on discs of what might be considered second rate recordings of first rate performances, and the performances came through so vibrantly I forgot all shortcomings. I found myself totally swept up in the music of old recordings that my audiophile ears had long ago turned their noses up at.
I found myself jumping up and dancing, or nodding on the teetering edge of sleep, depending on what the energy of the music was. Some passages teleported me to an altered state of consciousness, like in deep meditation. There's something wonderful that goes on there, but that's another story. And no, there was no contraband involved.
There was no harshness, even where I expected to find it. There was no loss of detail, only discovery of detail. The bass was the most pitch-defined and natural I have heard - just like a live acoustic event. The midrange was autograph quality. Getting the imaging and depth to come together was just a matter of adjusting their position. Following a single voice or instrument was not only easy, it was a delight. I effortlessly listened through all the annoying little recording inadequacies that normally distract me, because the music was so.... so.... present. It was like at a concert you simply don't hear the coughing or whatever when you're totally into the music. I could listen at low volumes and still hear everything. Here's an interesting test - turn the volume way down 'till you can bearly hear it, and how does it sound? The last sounds you can still hear are typically the areas where a speaker has midrange peaks. The Sound Labs were very smooth all the way down to inaudibility. As a veteran amateur speaker builder, I can say, "Well done!"
As I adjusted the placement and angle of the speakers (they are very responsive to small changes), I reflected on their radiation pattern (no pun intended). The most intelligent I have encountered. I have designed and built between 40 and 50 different speaker systems over the last 20 years, and they didn't start getting decent until I took radiation pattern into account. I began using arrays of drivers and L-pads to get the reverberant field to have the same tonal balance as the on-axis sound, without going to a pure omni design. My last system was to have been a dynamic dipole, but would have been so expensive that I might as well have bought a pair of used Quad electrostatics, which is what I did. Now the midrange of the Quads is legendary, and rightly so, but I encountered this drawback: When the music would really move me I'd want to move along with it, and so I'd stand up to conduct, play lead air guitar, whatever. Trouble is, with the Quad's point-source type radiation pattern, when you stand up Elvis leaves the building. With a tall, line-source system, Elvis is himself again. I might mention that, with the Quads, I encountered a mild upper-midrange prominence that showed up in Joan Osborne's vocals, for example. It was absent with the Sound Labs.
Now, Sound Lab doesn't have the only full range dipole game in town. Two others that come to mind are Magnepan and Audio Artistry, both of which were finalists on my list. The Magneplanars are a classic figure-8 dipole at low frequencies but have much wider dispersion at higher frequencies as the ultra-narrow ribbon tweeter kicks in. The result is more high frequency energy in the reverberant field, relative to the on-axis response. This can be tamed by propping up a strip of foam behind the tweeter, sort of like your Sallie, but since the speaker is voiced with that treble energy in the room it will now sound a bit dull. The Audio Artistry design consciously tries very hard to get the reverberant field right, and I think it does, but then it's using conventional drivers and losing the quickness and effortlessness of a planar magnetic or electrostatic. I have been in love with electrostatics since I first heard Janszens years ago, though the used Quads were the first pair I owned. I also own a pair of small Magneplanars.
As I understand it, Sound Lab's electrostatic naturally has a figure-8 pattern in the bass, and maintains essentially the same pattern all the way up by virtue of its curved geometry. When I leave the room it sounds like the band is still right there where I left them. This is phenomenal. The only other speaker I've heard convincingly recreate this "in the next room" illusion is the Klipschorn, which maintain essentially constant directivity across its frequency range. I have come to believe that when the reverberant field has a significantly different tonal balance from the direct sound, no matter how "good" it sounds, it'll eventually give you a headache because your brain has to work too hard to integrate the two.
Let me tell you how I became aware of Sound Lab. I saw an ad in Stereophile's classified where some guy was selling his 28 grand Audio Artistry Beethovens for 16 grand. Turns out he'd already taken a deposit so they were essentially spoken for, but I asked him for his impressions since I was considering the Dvoraks. He said they did everything well, he just had wanted to upgrade to a Genesis system (40 grand, as I recall). He mentioned that he'd owned many high end systems, and spoke with fondness - wistfulness? - of his old Sound Labs. It sounded to me like he missed them, so I asked him what Sound Labs were. He said they were wonderful full range electrostats, and that fortunately he'd sold his pair to his brother so they'd found a good home where he could still visit them. I thanked him and hunted down your website, reading every word, and finally calling when I saw there was no dealer near me (I'm in that picturesque reclaimed swamp known as New Orleans). I spoke with Brett who told me the CES veteran Millennium 1's were available, and suggested I consider the toroidial transformer upgrade. The rest is history.
So I bought them unheard, not based on some review or because I couldn't wait to spend my money, but because I knew I'd found what I was looking for (assuming your claims were honest, which they absolutely were). In my book, a full range dipole that generated a reverberant field with the same tonal balance as the direct sound was the way to go. Perhaps I'm coming at this from a different angle than you are (reproducing the cardiod pickup pattern of studio microphones), but your design just made sense to me.
My Millennium 1's are serial numbered "001", so apparently I have the very first pair. If you have inquiries from people who would like to talk to someone with a pair in their home, at least for now I'm the one and only. I invite you to send them to me.
So anyway I want to thank you for building such an outstanding product.
I hear someone in the living room now, so I better go see who it is this time. Maybe it's that girl from algebra...
Duke
 
from the quote:..............I have designed and built between 40 and 50 different speaker systems over the last 20 years
What does he mean by this?

Is he a professional speaker designer?

Very unlike any professional designer I know, no mater what the field they are in. In general designers tend to be biased towards what they know and what they have done themselves.

An entertaining write, thanks for sharing.
 
What does he mean by this?

Is he a professional speaker designer?

Very unlike any professional designer I know, no mater what the field they are in. In general designers tend to be biased towards what they know and what they have done themselves.

An entertaining write, thanks for sharing.


I think he became a SoundLab dealer after writing that up. He may sell his own brand of speaker these days, but a much smaller speaker.
 
David, I take it you are just a bit gobsmacked. :cheers:
Will you have a chance to stop by for the open house next Saturday?


Hey Brian,

I sure am! I will try to stop by for a couple of hours, but this is a hectic time of year. I will give you a buzz to confirm. Thanks.
 
What does he mean by this?

Is he a professional speaker designer?

Very unlike any professional designer I know, no mater what the field they are in. In general designers tend to be biased towards what they know and what they have done themselves.

An entertaining write, thanks for sharing.

George,
I know Duke LeJeune perhaps better than most people here, since he is also a Sound Lab enthusiast and dealer. We see each other at most all of the shows and keep in touch. While he is about as unconventional an audio dealer as you'll find, I think his convictions are sincere. The speakers he builds are the real deal, not for everyone but genuine and better than many. If I were looking for a waveguide type of speaker his would be in the top tier of what I'd consider.
 
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