Summits - Which are the best amps. to match with

[stereoman]

A quick update on my quest for a replacement amp. The EAR 869 (http://www.britishaudio.co.uk/ear869.html) is an SET with a blistering 15 wpc. Supplemented by the Summit's powered woofers, a full orchestra was reproduced with all of the body and weight required, but chamber and vocal music sounded as sweet as honey. The EAR 869 is now at the top of my list of contenders.

 

[Tommy]

My EAD Powermaster 2000 (5x400W) is clipping at loud volumes with the Summits, so I guess it's not too happy with low impedance. Anyway I miss the magic of tubes (+ I feel the EAD is slightly lacking in detail), so next week I am auditioning an used Jadis Defy 7 (uses 6 x 6550 tubes per channel for an output of 100w), and comparing it to the strongly recommended MC-275. Will let you know how it goes.

 

[nsgarch]

Please read this:

Go to this thread and read posts #8 and #12:
http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?p=47752#post47752

1. Watts are a product of volts times current
2. So 200 watts could equal (A) 1V x 200A or (B) 200V x 1A
3. When impedance (ohms) drops, and the speaker wants lots of watts, you could give it A or B, but an electrostat would prefer A because it's a current hungry device, not a voltage hungry device.
4. Tube amps (generally speaking) have more amps in each watt while SS amps have more volts in each watt,
5. Ergo, a 35 watt tube amp may be capable of delivering the same amount of CURRENT as a 200 watt SS amp.

 

[Craig]

1. Watts are a product of volts times current
2. So 200 watts could equal (A) 1V x 200A or (B) 200V x 1A
3. When impedance (ohms) drops, and the speaker wants lots of watts, you could give it A or B, but an electrostat would prefer A because it's a current hungry device, not a voltage hungry device.
4. Tube amps (generally speaking) have more amps in each watt while SS amps have more volts in each watt,
5. Ergo, a 35 watt tube amp may be capable of delivering the same amount of CURRENT as a 200 watt SS amp

This is the best explanation I've come across on why "seemingly" low powered tube amps do so well with electrostats. I'm using an Art Audio 24 watt high-current amp on my Summits and love the sound.

 

[Chris J.]

Tube vs. Solid State

This is a reply to the two previous posts,
This reply isn't meant to insult or disrespect anyone's opinion. I just thought I might throw in my $0.02 worth. I am an Electrical Engineer by trade. In an attempt to simplify a very complicated issue: a 50 Watt solid state power amp will deilver as much current and voltage into an 8 ohm resistive load as a 50 Watt tube power amp run off it's 8 ohms transformer taps. As the impedance drops, generally speaking, a high quality solid state amp will deliver more current into the load (i.e. loudspeaker) while the vacuum tube amp will not. That is why tube power amps are usually equipped with several output transformer taps, i.e. 16 ohm, 8 ohm, 4 ohm to allow you to match the tube amplifiers output power to your speakers nominal impedance. If your load tries to draw more current from the amp than the amp can deliver the power amp will go into clipping, the advantage of tubes is they clip far more gracefully that soild state amps, i.e. the tube amps clipping does not sounds as harsh or offensive as the soild state amps clipping. Another advantage of tube amps is the output tubes are very rugged and do not require protective current limiting circuitry, transistors are far more fragile and usually require current limiting circuitry, the current limiting can also affect the amps sound when the amp goes itno clipping. An excellent reference is the "Hifi Investigation" feature in the April 2007 issue of HI FI News.

My apologies if I have offended anyone, I'm not trying to start a flame war.
Regards,
Chris

 

[JonFo]

Chris, excellent points and thanks for sharing.

I'm of the opinion that ML's need high-current, but I favor using a solid state amp than can double its wattage into every halving of impedance. I.e. 200wpc at 8 Ohms and 400 into 4 Ohms).

Any SS amp that does that, and has sufficient amperage capability will do the trick.

 

[stereoman]

A quick update on my quest for a replacement amp. The EAR 869 (http://www.britishaudio.co.uk/ear869.html) is an SET with a blistering 15 wpc. Supplemented by the Summit's powered woofers, a full orchestra was reproduced with all of the body and weight required, but chamber and vocal music sounded as sweet as honey. The EAR 869 is now at the top of my list of contenders.

The EAR869 has already been toppled! This week I had the good fortune to be able to borrow the EAR 834 (http://www.positive-feedback.com/ambackissues/EAR834.htm). It runs at 50 watts class A. It lands between the EAR869 and the EAR890 in that it has the liquidity of an SET and the impact of a KT90.

Next week I hope to audition the EAR V20 (http://www.ear-yoshino.com/productdetails.asp?page=1&id=1). That should be the clincher.

 

[Chris J.]

SS vs. tubes continued.......

Hi Jon Fo,

I wasn't trying to take a side on the tubes vs. solid state argument. I was just trying to explain why a low output current tube amp may sound as satisfying as a high output current solid state amp. I currently own a pair of Sonic Frontiers SFM-75 Mk II vacuum tube power amps. They sound great at moderate levels, especially the midrange frequencies but sound a bit compressed (but not harsh!) at high volumes. Lately I've tried several different good quality solid state amps (Lexicon, Arcam, Primare) with my Aeons, the improved bass control they provide certainly is attractive.

Regards,
Chris

 

[wallacefl]

I use a Bryston 14BSSt with my CLS which is more likely harder to drive than the Summit....very balanced across the whole range and sonically very similar to the Parasounds....if you want the tube amp sound with guts check out a used Sunfire Signiture II...

 

[roberto]

you are missing one important point...

Hola guys...just wanted you to remember the benefit of the Summits and Vantage over other ML products...it is their sensitivity. They require only about 1/3 of the power that we usually use on previous models...my CLSs needs big watts...no matter if I use tubes or SS. The CLSs sensitivity at specs are 87dBs/2.83V/meter and I think that they have less. The Summits sensitivity is 92dBs/2.83V/meter. This is why you can use smaller, and very low power amps!!! Quality watts are better than quantity watts. Don´t get me wrong here. We all use the right amp with enough power to drive any ML...but the new tech. allow us to use models on power amps with outstanding specifications and sound, with very low wattage. Trust your ears!!! and listen carefully. Happy listening,
Roberto.

 

[stereoman]

Next week I hope to audition the EAR V20 (http://www.ear-yoshino.com/productdetails.asp?page=1&id=1). That should be the clincher.

After 6 months of searching I've decided on a replacement amplifier for my Summits. After hearing it last week I knew this was the one. I purchased the ...
:musicnote: EAR V20 :musicnote:

It's a 24 watt, Class-A, push-pull, enhanced triode 30 tube(!) amp. Details appear in the Stereophile review (http://www.stereophile.com/integratedamps/1099ear/).
Many recommendations for amplifiers have appeared in this forum, but I based my decision on the following criteria, in order of importance:

1. Availability for an in-house trial.
2. Recommendation from a local dealer who's opinion I trust.
3. Positive reviews in stereo publications.
4. Aesthetics.

Criteria #1 is a must (as Roberto says, "trust your ears"), resulting in a considerable narrowing of the field. I was lucky enough to be able to try models from Graaf, Copland, Simaudio, and EAR. While the 4 EAR models I tried had a recognizable brand sound, the V20 had the best package, including an integrated pre-amp section that blew away my Audio Research LS16 pre-amp.

Now, I'll get back to listening to music (you know an upgrade is worthwhile when you find yourself re-discovering your music collection).

 

[nsgarch]

All right Stereoman!

After 6 months of searching I've decided on a replacement amplifier for my Summits. After hearing it last week I knew this was the one. I purchased the ... EAR V20 It's a 24 watt, Class-A, push-pull, enhanced triode 30 tube(!) amp. Now, I'll get back to listening to music (you know an upgrade is worthwhile when you find yourself re-discovering your music collection).

That took balls, something many audiosheep lack. You will be greatly rewarded for this non-conformist choice!

I similarly love my 90w/ch tube McIntosh 275 with my CLS's much better than with my (200w/ch@8ohms) Levinson 23.5. And despite Roberto's doubts to the contrary, CLS's don't require that much power -- maybe the V-20's 24watts wouldn't do (Summit panels only go down to 270Hz, while CLS's go down to 45Hz) but I would have no trouble destroying Roberto's hearing with my "little" 90watt McIntosh :bowdown:

 

[paulo m]

That took balls, something many audiosheep lack. You will be greatly rewarded for this non-conformist choice!

I similarly love my 90w/ch tube McIntosh 275 with my CLS's much better than with my (200w/ch@8ohms) Levinson 23.5. And despite Roberto's doubts to the contrary, CLS's don't require that much power -- maybe the V-20's 24watts wouldn't do (Summit panels only go down to 270Hz, while CLS's go down to 45Hz) but I would have no trouble destroying Roberto's hearing with my "little" 90watt McIntosh :bowdown:

That's fine if upgrading speakers is completely outside your future plans. The only thing holding me back from taking the plunge and getting an MC275 (as opposed to e.g. a 450 W/ch VTL MB 450, at more than 3x the price...) is the sense that even though 90 W/ch would be fine for now, they may not be in the future--there are a lot more speakers out there, and not all of them are amplified. So, it all depends heavily on how future-proof you want your component choices to be.

 

[roberto]

That's fine if upgrading speakers is completely outside your future plans. The only thing holding me back from taking the plunge and getting an MC275 (as opposed to e.g. a 450 W/ch VTL MB 450, at more than 3x the price...) is the sense that even though 90 W/ch would be fine for now, they may not be in the future--there are a lot more speakers out there, and not all of them are amplified. So, it all depends heavily on how future-proof you want your component choices to be.

Hola Paolo...I understand your point, but I have being with ML sound over 20 years now, and the more I listen to them, the less feeling of change hits me. I do know that there are a lot of good sounding speakers out there and ML is not perfect, but for what you pay and what you get, its unmatch. This is why we have this forum also...ask if you find people here who wants to change ML speakers for any cone of what ever. Don´t get me wrong, all what I am saying is that until now, low power amps are doing well with the new tech. and new models of ML. You can use super good sounding low power amps, and will drive the Summits or the Vantage with no problem, even sounding strong SPL with low power. Quality watts here are better as always. Just listen to them:musicnote: and trust your ears, not the specs...happy listening,
Roberto.

 

[edwinr]

Mark Levinson No. 432

Maybe one of these...

 

[nsgarch]

That's fine if upgrading speakers is completely outside your future plans. The only thing holding me back from taking the plunge and getting an MC275 (as opposed to e.g. a 450 W/ch VTL MB 450, at more than 3x the price...) is the sense that even though 90 W/ch would be fine for now, they may not be in the future--there are a lot more speakers out there, and not all of them are amplified. So, it all depends heavily on how future-proof you want your component choices to be.

Well Paulo, no one could argue with a general statement like that; but buying ahead of one's needs could be very wasteful. For myself, if I were ever to upgrade, it would be for improved electrostats (Summits, or CLX's maybe?) The simple fact is there aren't any non-hybrid electrostatics (panels only,) including the big Soundlabs, that won't perform beautifully with a couple of MC275's (or other tube amps) delivering 180w each. So my upgrade path (if there ever is one ;-) would be to start with the MC275 I have, and then add another MC275 if/when necessary. That way, I could avoid overkill now, or later on, having to sell something I can't use. No disrespect for the VTL, or the Wolcott. They're fine amps, but totally unnecessary for any speaker I would contemplate owning.

 

[paulo m]

Well Paulo, no one could argue with a general statement like that; but buying ahead of one's needs could be very wasteful. For myself, if I were ever to upgrade, it would be for improved electrostats (Summits, or CLX's maybe?) The simple fact is there aren't any non-hybrid electrostatics (panels only,) including the big Soundlabs, that won't perform beautifully with a couple of MC275's (or other tube amps) delivering 180w each. So my upgrade path (if there ever is one ;-) would be to start with the MC275 I have, and then add another MC275 if/when necessary. That way, I could avoid overkill now, or later on, having to sell something I can't use. No disrespect for the VTL, or the Wolcott. They're fine amps, but totally unnecessary for any speaker I would contemplate owning.

As I said, perfectly legitimate approach if you don't foresee upgrading your speakers to a more demanding pair (ML or non-ML). I fully subscribe to the "use your ears" mantra and I have no desire to spend more than I have to in any component--that's precisely what leads me to take into consideration a broad range of amplifiers, so that any judgment can be made in full knowledge of all variables including having a clear sense of whether paying 3x the price of the 275 is worth it now and, as a big plus, perhaps a few years on (and conversely, whether the Mac would be something to sell in the not too distant future, regardless of how good it is now). I mean no disrespect to the McIntosh as I think it is a very good piece for the price, however it stands to reason that when ML powered up their Statements at HiFi '98 they used 6 VTL Wotans, not 6 MC275s .

 

[nsgarch]

The nice thing about Mac and Audio Research and JBL is they're the champs of resale ;-) I don't think it's exactly justified but that's how it is so you might as well take advantage of it in this situation.
The Statements are probably not the best example for planning future amp requirements (will you be getting get a pair soon?) They have several non-electrostatic driver sections that require more power than the panels do. So if you have a pair of Statements in your future, what I said about mid-power tube amps wouldn't exactly apply ;-) I think a coffin-sized Krell would do nicely, but then you'd have to listen to a Krell ;-(

 

[paulo m]

The nice thing about Mac and Audio Research and JBL is they're the champs of resale ;-) I don't think it's exactly justified but that's how it is so you might as well take advantage of it in this situation.
The Statements are probably not the best example for planning future amp requirements (will you be getting get a pair soon?) They have several non-electrostatic driver sections that require more power than the panels do. So if you have a pair of Statements in your future, what I said about mid-power tube amps wouldn't exactly apply ;-) I think a coffin-sized Krell would do nicely, but then you'd have to listen to a Krell ;-(

No, I don't have Statements in my future, at least not the near one . I was kidding with that reference, but then the panel sections could have been amplified less expensively, since they certainly don't require 1250 W.

My point still remains--whether it is a pair of VTL or Audio Research monoblocks (the Ref 210 is also on my list), I wouldn't want to be forced to upgrade the amp if/when I decide to upgrade the speakers. The whole upgrade process is excruciating enough with a single variable, let alone two. But all this is predicated on extensively auditioning all the amps, including the MC275, and I'll thoroughly detail the reasons behind my ultimate decision and share that with the board.

 

[edwinr]

After 6 months of searching I've decided on a replacement amplifier for my Summits. After hearing it last week I knew this was the one. I purchased the ...
:musicnote: EAR V20 :musicnote:

It's a 24 watt, Class-A, push-pull, enhanced triode 30 tube(!) amp. Details appear in the Stereophile review (http://www.stereophile.com/integratedamps/1099ear/).
Many recommendations for amplifiers have appeared in this forum, but I based my decision on the following criteria, in order of importance:

1. Availability for an in-house trial.
2. Recommendation from a local dealer who's opinion I trust.
3. Positive reviews in stereo publications.
4. Aesthetics.

Criteria #1 is a must (as Roberto says, "trust your ears"), resulting in a considerable narrowing of the field. I was lucky enough to be able to try models from Graaf, Copland, Simaudio, and EAR. While the 4 EAR models I tried had a recognizable brand sound, the V20 had the best package, including an integrated pre-amp section that blew away my Audio Research LS16 pre-amp.

Now, I'll get back to listening to music (you know an upgrade is worthwhile when you find yourself re-discovering your music collection).

That looks like a very nice amplifier - I guess it'll sound just as good as it looks. :music:

Has anyone tried the Ayre AX7e with the Summits? Just curious whether a high quality s/s amp of lowish wattage would sound good. The specs are 60 watts into 8 ohms and 120 into 4 ohms. There's no info about the Ayre's stability into 2 ohms...