Subwoofer recommendation for Aeon i's

MartinLogan Audio Owners Forum

Help Support MartinLogan Audio Owners Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

zzvelik

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2006
Messages
54
Reaction score
0
Location
Southern California
Greeting folks,

I recently purchased a pair of Aeon i's. Although I'm impressed about the overall sound quality especially for Jazz music, I really miss the bass that I had with my NHT speakers. I read about the Abyss, Grotto and Depth, but would really like to hear from other Aeon i (or similar model) owners about which subwoofer would work out best for a 15' x 20' room.

Thanks,

Z
 
Greeting folks,

I recently purchased a pair of Aeon i's. Although I'm impressed about the overall sound quality especially for Jazz music, I really miss the bass that I had with my NHT speakers. I read about the Abyss, Grotto and Depth, but would really like to hear from other Aeon i (or similar model) owners about which subwoofer would work out best for a 15' x 20' room.

Thanks,

Z

Z,

I'm in the same situation. I'm torn about the various solutions, and alas, I don't really have the option of auditioning many different subs. The ML subs score very high marks from many, but I know they are not the only name in low frequency...Velo, REL, Revel, and SVS seem to be names mentioned in the same breath as the ML subs. I'm sure the ML line kicks it, literally.

Having said that, I have had the chance to borrow a REL from a buddy whose brother left it in the closet. Any way, when I found out it was just sitting there, I told him that I would need it for a little while:rolleyes: All I can say is WOW! I was really shocked at the speed of the sub. It was only then that I realized how bad my existing sub was smearing the soundstage. The REL just integrated so well with my Aeon's. It kind of freaks me out everytime a small change in setup yields such dramatic results with these speakers. The sound stage became deeper and the detail more precise...almost like a camera lens coming into focus.

I know that the Descent allows for similar integration with respect to low pass and how you choose to connect for 2 channel or LFE. Although I'm not yet done, I'm eagerly awaiting for the Descent i to come out before making a decision. But for now, I don't think you can exclude REL from consideration. I would love to hear your thoughts as well. Good Luck!
 
All I can say is WOW! I was really shocked at the speed of the sub. It was only then that I realized how bad my existing sub was smearing the soundstage. The REL just integrated so well with my Aeon's.
Now the next steps are:

1. Add a low end EQ for that sub and see the next level you can get too, regardless of the sub. Behringer, Velodyne and AV123 all offer products to achieve this task

2. Low end room treatments - Bass Traps

The combination of these two has taken my low end sound to a completely different level, beyond just the addition of a very good sub.

Dan
 
Now the next steps are:

1. Add a low end EQ for that sub and see the next level you can get too, regardless of the sub. Behringer, Velodyne and AV123 all offer products to achieve this task

2. Low end room treatments - Bass Traps

The combination of these two has taken my low end sound to a completely different level, beyond just the addition of a very good sub.

Dan

Dan - do you have the Velodyne SMS-1(???)... If so - can you comment on how it works - the hook-up of it etc.... Also, more on 'bass traps'. To us novices - with room treatment - that sounds like bass removal. I would think that if I have no 'boomy' sound - there would be no need for bass traps. If you have the EQ - can you comment about your sound before and after you EQ'd. I find that to be one downside of the ML subs - no EQ. Does adding EQ in the sub have any negative impact to the overall sound? thanks - tim.
 
Dan - do you have the Velodyne SMS-1(???)... If so - can you comment on how it works - the hook-up of it etc.... Also, more on 'bass traps'.
Here is a thread I did here when I first received the SMS-1

http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?t=1169&page=2&highlight=sms-1

Since then, I have learned many things about using the SMS-1, and I have to say that I still absolutely love it for low end EQ (15 - 120 Hz). There are cheaper solutions (Behringer), but for something that is easy to use out of the box, the SMS-1 cannot be beat.

One of the best things I like about the SMS-1 is the real time graphing of the response, while you are making changes. Ever wondered how changing the phase affects the sound? You make a change then you sit there and think - "what sounds better - 15 or 30??" - and you endlessly switch back and forth. With the SMS-1 you can see the affects on the sound real-time while you make the changes.

But realize that some people do not like flat response bass, some feel the need for additional or less response. So you set your unit up first to get the response curve right, then you can adjust from there for your tastes and preferences. The unit also has presets for different settings and different curves if this is what you want. This is where your preferences and additions/subtractions can be implemented. I use the presets for different crossover points for the sub helping out those albums that need more of an overlap from main speakers and sub - i.e. thin or lifeless recordings. While the addition does not make a great recording (chicken salad from chicken poop theory), it does improve them a bit.

The best thing of all - REMOTE VOLUME CONTROL of your sub!!!! Like my Pre Amp, I never thought I would like remote control volume - just get up and change it!!! Well, I have remote control volulme on my Pre and would not live without it, and now it is the same thing with the SMS-1, I could not live without it. And then throw in the presets and you have full control of your sub at your seating position!!!!!

Right now with the room treatments and the SMS-1, I have a response from 15-120Hz that is within +/- 3dB EXCEPT for two NULLs. I am still working with GIK (Glenn) on the two NULLS (6dB or less) around 110 and 150.

To us novices - with room treatment - that sounds like bass removal. I would think that if I have no 'boomy' sound - there would be no need for bass traps.
I thought the bass was pretty good in my setup before the SMS-1 - boy was I wrong. During audition time for a new sub, I also thought the bass was pretty good with the subs, but each of the subs had great improvements with the SMS-1 added to the loop. Most people do not realize how much better they can get the bass response in their rooms.

Another nice feature of the SMS-1. You get it all setup, sit there and listen, and wonder if it really did make that much of a difference. Well they have a preset on the unit that by passes all the EQing that you have done. This gives you a chance to hear your bass properly EQ'ed versus non-EQ'ed. You will then find out how much your room really affects your low end, and in turn the rest of your music.

Room Acoustics and Room Treatments:

I am no expert by any means on the subject, but I have been very interested in it for the past year, and read a couple of forums regarding the subject. The two people I have learned the most from reading this subject is Ethan Winer (Real Traps) and Glenn Krauss (GIK). These guys know their stuff and post all the time in forums to help us novices out. Room Acoustics and Room EQ is one of the hottest topics in audio IMO and people are finding out that their very expensive equipment can sound even better when their room lets it. And the cost is far less than you would pay for an exotic cable, power cord, etc. that some think make so much difference. (my opinion is cables do make a difference, but not like I have heard with Room EQ and Room Treatments)

Here is a thread I did a while back when I use using just the Auralex treatments:

http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?t=2028&highlight=sms-1

I still use some of the Auralex on the front wall to help tame down some of the front wall reflection and also at my first reflection points on side walls. I do not cover the entire wall, I just use treatments mostly behind the TV which sits between the speakers and 3 or 4 1' x 1' sections spaced apart directly behind the speakers. Too many of these sections just deaden the sound too much, but the ones directly behind the TV have helped out the most. It is trial and error on placement and amounts.

I now have purchased 8 of the GIK Modell 244's and have them in all lower corners of my room, and three along the back wall (behind seating position) in front of a bookcase. I plan to purchase some more of the 244's to finish up the corners of the room so they are treated from floor to ceiling. But again Glenn and I have been discussing and trying some things out to see what would be the best place for the next step. We may find out that the room has reached it potential due to the layout and the limitations of movement of stuff. Again remember, that my room is a primary living space for the family, so that has to be taken into account. Heck, I would love to have a room just for my music.

The low end in my room never sounded better. With all the concrete in this room along with a drop ceiling, bass amount was never a problem, it was bass quality. Well now I have quality bass. Note: I did not say "fast bass", as I do not believe in that description - I prefer quality and accurate bass as a proper term. There is a great paper out on the net if you do a search on Slow Bass and why the statement really does not work.

Room treatments have allowed my system to jump up another level, not only in Bass Response, but since the bass is cleaner and the room affects are less, the other parts of the music come through even better. Everything has more detail to it since the treaments. And all of this improvement for under $600. The change for the better has never come at such a small cost for my setup.

It will be interesting to see if I can get it sounding better in the future through more room treatments - at least as many more as the wife will put up with!!!!!

Dan
 
Last edited:
Velodyne SMS-1

Hi Dan,

Any idea whether this device can work on the Summit's sub? Can it be connected between the amp and the Summit sub's input in a bi-wire situation or will the signal from the amp be too high for the device?

Ben
 
Last edited:
Any idea whether this device can work on the Summit's sub? Can it be connected between the amp and the Summit sub's input in a bi-wire situation or will the signal from the amp be too high for the device?
The SMS-1 takes either a line level (RCA or XLR) or speaker level inputs, but does not have speaker level outputs. Since no speaker level outputs, the only way I could think of is having two outputs from your Pre to two amps - one for panel and one for bass. Put the SMS-1 between the Pre and the Bass Amps and EQ from there.

The Velodyne site does have access to the Manual for the SMS-1 for further reading. And Velodyne does have a support thread for the SMS-1 over at AVS Forum in the Subwoofer section.

Dan
 
GS,

I never used a sub in any of my previous systems since I never needed one, so I'll just go through the same experimental path as you with various subs. Too bad I don't have a friend who has a sub I can borrow. I may just give the REL or Velodyne a shot since I've heard good things about them or even wait for the Depths go on sale when the Depth i's come out. You mentioned the soundstage becoming deeper when you added the sub; that's exactly why I fell in love with the Vistas/Vantages when I first heard them. Since the Vistas and Vantages were a bit too pricey for me, I thought I'd go for the Aeon i's for now and pick up a sub in the near future. For now, I'll keep breaking in the speakers with my Jarrett CDs to see how much the sound (& bass according to the owner's manual) will improve.

Regards,

Z



Z,

I'm in the same situation. I'm torn about the various solutions, and alas, I don't really have the option of auditioning many different subs. The ML subs score very high marks from many, but I know they are not the only name in low frequency...Velo, REL, Revel, and SVS seem to be names mentioned in the same breath as the ML subs. I'm sure the ML line kicks it, literally.

Having said that, I have had the chance to borrow a REL from a buddy whose brother left it in the closet. Any way, when I found out it was just sitting there, I told him that I would need it for a little while:rolleyes: All I can say is WOW! I was really shocked at the speed of the sub. It was only then that I realized how bad my existing sub was smearing the soundstage. The REL just integrated so well with my Aeon's. It kind of freaks me out everytime a small change in setup yields such dramatic results with these speakers. The sound stage became deeper and the detail more precise...almost like a camera lens coming into focus.

I know that the Descent allows for similar integration with respect to low pass and how you choose to connect for 2 channel or LFE. Although I'm not yet done, I'm eagerly awaiting for the Descent i to come out before making a decision. But for now, I don't think you can exclude REL from consideration. I would love to hear your thoughts as well. Good Luck!
 
Last edited:
I'm in the same position here but my room is smaller.. about 10x17. I have the Clarity's as mains. My condo is only 500 sq.ft. so I'm definitely in a small space.
I had a chance to audition the Sunfire subs a month or two ago (unfortunately, not with Martin Logan's). Even in a very large wide open room, they were impressive. So, yesterday, I ordered the Sunfire True Subwoffer Jr. Size matters as my space is limited and I like the idea of a 9 inch cube.
I could not find any reference to the Sunfire subs in these forums and to be honest, my decision is based on size and reviews on the net. I ran the DVE sub test tones last night and the Clarity's are pretty useless with anything under 50Hz, so I'm hoping the Sunfire will give me the kick I need in the small space.
I'll post my results after the unit arrives, hopefully in a week or so.
Any comments from the members on the Sunfire subs?
Thanks!
 
To us novices - with room treatment - that sounds like bass removal. I would think that if I have no 'boomy' sound - there would be no need for bass traps.

It is not Bass Removal, but control of Bass Reflections. It is the reflections of sound that muck up the sound in our rooms.

Here is a great page from Ethan Winer on Room Acoustics and Treatments:

http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

Many good things to read in here to get you started down the path...

Dan
 
Velodyne SMS-1

.....Since no speaker level outputs, the only way I could think of is having two outputs from your Pre to two amps - one for panel and one for bass. Put the SMS-1 between the Pre and the Bass Amps and EQ from there.

Dan

Yea Dan, double line output is available from my Classe Pre (1 XLR and 1 RCA). Only concern I have is since the Summit's sub is designed to accept speaker level output, feeding it with line level output from the SMS-1 might mess up balance between the sub and the panel.

Unfortunately the owner's manual doesn't appear to address this issue. I can't think of any reason why they would want to provide a speaker level input without a corresponding output though.

BTW, I have just placed an order for a unit.

Ben
 
Last edited:
Yea Dan, double line output is available from my Classe Pre (1 balance and 1 RCA). Only concern I have is since the Summit's sub is designed to accept speaker level output, feeding it with line level output from the SMS-1 might mess up the bass output level.

I was thinking:

Pre Amp -> Panel Power Amp -> Panel Posts on Summits
............-> SMS-1 -> Sub Power Amp -> Woofer Posts on Summits

-OR-

Pre-Amp -> SMS-1 -> SMS-1 High Pass Outputs -> Power Amp -> Panels
..........................-> Sub outputs on SMS-1 -> Sub Power Amp -> Woofers
 
Last edited:
Velodyne SMS-1

I was thinking:

Pre Amp -> Panel Power Amp -> Panel Posts on Summits
............-> SMS-1 -> Sub Power Amp -> Woofer Posts on Summits

-OR-

Pre-Amp -> SMS-1 -> SMS-1 High Pass Outputs -> Power Amp -> Panels
..........................-> Sub outputs on SMS-1 -> Sub Power Amp -> Woofers

Means investing in another power amp. Not very cost effective, is it?

Ben
 
I was thinking:

Pre Amp -> Panel Power Amp -> Panel Posts on Summits
............-> SMS-1 -> Sub Power Amp -> Woofer Posts on Summits

-OR-

Pre-Amp -> SMS-1 -> SMS-1 High Pass Outputs -> Power Amp -> Panels
..........................-> Sub outputs on SMS-1 -> Sub Power Amp -> Woofers

Dan - I picked your shortest note to append to....Thanks for all of your input!! tim.
 
Velodyne SMS-1

Was just addressing the hookup needed for the Summits, not cost :D

Dan

Very much appreciate your input, Dan. I think it'll work great and frankly can't see any other alternative in preserving proper integration between the woofer and panel. Was just looking at the whole picture. Think am going to have fun playing with the unit when I get my hands on it and explore the possibilities. Thanks again.

PS: Sorry I missed the separate woofer amp suggestion in your earlier post.
Ben
 
Last edited:
Aeon 1 with Grotto subwoofer

I bought the the ML Aeon 1 speakers and found them to be a little bass shy. I then purchased a ML grotto subwoofer. I performed great in a 2 channel mode by adding enough bass but not over powering the panel. I upgraded to ML Vantage speakers recently. I did not need the grotto sub as the Vantage have plenty of bass. I tried using the ML grotto in my home theatre area but found it to not have enough bass for my home theatre. So I feel for 2channel setup a Grotto would work great for 2 channel but for home theatre use I would upgrade to a ML Descent.
JJJ
 
JJ,

It's good to hear your story since I have the option to return the Aeon i's within the 30 day purchase period or go for the upgrade within a year. Since I got them at a significant discount, I can just hold on to them for a while and hope they sound much better after the break in period is over. If I go for the upgrade, I'd be confused between the Vista and the Vantage even after reading most of the discussions about their differences. I haven't done an A/B comparison between the Aeon i's and the Vistas, but boy... those Vistas sure sounded like they had a much wider and deeper soundstage. I wonder if part of that is because my Aeons are not broken in yet? I'll find out soon enough.

Z
 
Velodyne SMS-1

Was just addressing the hookup needed for the Summits, not cost :D

Dan

Just a thought, Dan. Isn't the Summit's woofer digitally driven and the SMS-1 is supposed to work only with non-DD subs?

Ben
 
Just a thought, Dan. Isn't the Summit's woofer digitally driven and the SMS-1 is supposed to work only with non-DD subs?
What you mean when you say digitally driven? Servo? The only thing the SMS-1 does not do, that the Velodyne DD series does, is servo control.

Dan
 
Back
Top