Stuck a pair of my old speakers next to the MLs. Heretic?

[JohnA]

Who cares if it is not a purist approach, it works!

I was disappointed from day one because the SL3s wouldn't 'rock'

Despite biamping, spikes, concrete slabs, tow and tilt, they still sucked at rock.
Adjustments for flat response, two subs augmenting a bit, nothing.
Muchos suckos.

Now, inspired by Jon's six-driver midbass column, I added a pair of my old speakers on the sides and connected them daisy-chained from pre-out.

They rock! :rocker: Rolling Stones sound again like they were meant to. Harsh and raspy. Enough with the flat but 'transparent' sound crap.
I tried all sorts of material, from purely acoustic/voice to Dark Side of the Moon and Take Five.
Tried all sorts of permutations (even the old speakers without the tweeters) and every time the combination worked better than the SL3s alone. Seriously.

I've had to resort to aggressive tow to avoid creating a hole (the other speakers are on the outside of the MLs, trying to pull the image outwards)

To my surprise, even on purely acoustic (where the MLs are unbeatable) there is still improvement when the other ones are augmenting.
I had also the opinions of others, and I was adjusting the volume levels obviously to avoid the 'louder is better' syndrome.

All in all, success:cheers:

 

[IWalker]

Very interesting. Seems strange that it would sound good just playing together without any crossover, but if that's what sounds good to you, great!!! Always fun to experiment and find something you like!

I made an array as well (significanly different than JonFo's (and not nearly as nice), but definitely inspired by it) and think it makes a huge difference for rock, and improves all types of music to some degree. I'm crossing it over instead of daisy chaining it, but it adds a lot to the music, in my opinion...more of the "feel it" bass in the upper bass registers. I still need a sub to get the deep bass, but I feel like I have much better (it's still very tight sounding) bass above 80Hz than I did when the subs in the MLs were connected (even those were supposed to extend down to 40Hz or so). (I have the Quest's woofers disconnected currently)

 

[Robin]

Augmenting SL3's with Cone Speakers...

JohnA,

Interesting... What kinda speakers are doing the augmenting, giving more mid-range punch?

I don't know what Jonathan does for a living but me thinks he may have missed his calling... I do think Jonathan should go into the speaker manufacturing buisiness with his wife and cabinet maker friend. They design and make amazing DIY speakers. I think many of us would buy Jonathan's speaker in a heart beat...

We Love you Jonathan.

 

[akm3]

I don't think you are a heretic, but my question is "why?"

You obviously prefer a cone/box speaker, why don't you just ditch the logans and be happy?

-Allen

 

[Charliemike]

I don't understand. I have SL3s and Dave Matthews Band's Central Park concert sounds great in a multi-channel setup.

Unless you are talking Iron Maiden or something like that, I'm confuzzled.

 

[Pcar928fan]

I don't understand. I have SL3s and Dave Matthews Band's Central Park concert sounds great in a multi-channel setup.

Unless you are talking Iron Maiden or something like that, I'm confuzzled.

yea, I don't understand that either. I play all kinds of hard rock on my Prodigy system and it will play louder than I can comfortably listen to it! That is even when I was driving it w/ the Pioneer Elite VSX49TX (no slouch, but still not the Rotel stuff I run now). Even my Aerius i would rock the house plenty well...

 

[Rich]

yea, I don't understand that either. I play all kinds of hard rock on my Prodigy system and it will play louder than I can comfortably listen to it! That is even when I was driving it w/ the Pioneer Elite VSX49TX (no slouch, but still not the Rotel stuff I run now). Even my Aerius i would rock the house plenty well...

I think the difference here is the Prodigies and the Aerius have woofers; the CLS don't. I think the man just likes the slam of a dynamic cone woofer. Sounds like another mid-bass line array DIY project just waitin' to happen.

 

[Pcar928fan]

I think the difference here is the Prodigies and the Aerius have woofers; the CLS don't. I think the man just likes the slam of a dynamic cone woofer. Sounds like another mid-bass line array DIY project just waitin' to happen.

He is using SL3's not CLS's...the SL3's are the BIG version of the Aerius i...

 

[JohnA]

Very interesting. Seems strange that it would sound good just playing together without any crossover,

Yes it does seem strange.
I was actually hostile to the idea of having anything else sitting around the MLs, let alone play music!
But my girlfriend insisted that it I had to try it out, initially I thought it was a ridiculous idea (muddle the image, destroy the transparency, add 'boxiness', introduce time correlation, take your pick)
I did try it reluctantly and (I hate to say this) she was dead right.

I made an array as well (significanly different than JonFo's (and not nearly as nice), but definitely inspired by it) and think it makes a huge difference for rock, and improves all types of music to some degree.

Mine are the Kelly KT2 speakers made by Musical Fidelity almost ten years ago. Floorstanding, but they need to be on a couple of bricks and spikes for the tweeters to be at listening level. The two 'woofers' are D'Apollito arrangement, over and below the tweeter.

In my current setup I have them straight on the floor so the tweeters are below ear level. It works better this way with the MLs. They are also aggressively towed in, same as the logans.

Now there is punch when there are drums, the music is more realistic, it has more slam.
We did several tests with all combos and angles, and there was always an improvement, even with purely acoustic music (kantele from the Middle Ages). I was shocked to hear that, but that how it is. With rock it is a different world. I played the whole Night at the Opera DVDA and it rocked like it never had before.

Just with the MLs it was polite, flat(ish) and somehow sterile.
With just the Kellys it was a bit rough, busy and muddled.
With both of them it was transformed: transparent, tight, punchy, clear.

We're talking 95-96db at listening position, with subs and surrounds all setup correctly.

I also added socks at the rear-facing ports of the Kellys to stop them from adding rear info.

I'm crossing it over instead of daisy chaining it, but it adds a lot to the music, in my opinion...more of the "feel it" bass in the upper bass registers. I still need a sub to get the deep bass, but I feel like I have much better (it's still very tight sounding) bass above 80Hz than I did when the subs in the MLs were connected (even those were supposed to extend down to 40Hz or so). .

Yep, there is more upper bass, that 'punch' you feel when the drums sounds just right

This shouldn't work, but it does. It kicks ass actually.
This is a much better use for my XA-50 monoblocs, rather than using them to biamp the MLs (the difference was clear, but marginal)

 

[JohnA]

...You obviously prefer a cone/box speaker, why don't you just ditch the logans and be happy?

I fell in love with the logan sound the moment I heard them playing (ten years ago, at a dealer audition).
They are extremely accurate and transparent.

But I was mildly disappointed when I tried to optimise them in my room and the sound had no 'gut' no matter what I tried.
The ML woofer settings are at -3db and the sw gain is low in order to achieve max frequency flatness in the (medium-sized) room.

It is not a matter of the logans having 'no bass', they have enough, they measure well too. But it's hard to describe the lack of 'punch', once you hear it you'll know exactly what it is. It is the soul of the music.

Maybe if I could place the logans in a larger room, sitting one-third of the room length away from the walls, things would have been different.
But I can't and they aren't.

I regard this arrangement of mine as a hack, but it works so well, that I felt I had to share it with you guys.
None of the logan magic was lost and the missing link was established. I couldn't be happier:rocker:

Here is a view of the system from the front. It ain't an artistic shot, but it gives a rough idea

Left and right shots of the same, just the links to save on forum bandwidth:
Left view
Right view

 

[JonFo]

John, interesting experiment.

I think it corroborates a view I’ve held that the 80 to 300 Hz region on ESL’s (not all models, but most below the big boys) is not power balanced to the rest of the frequency range.

It is a common speaker design issue to not have equal frequency response at varying SPL levels. Designers look for off-axis balance, smooth FR at 85 dB and all sorts of other parameters, but I do not believe everyone looks at how smooth the FR is at each step of a volume range between 70 dB and 100+ dB. If you do this test, you’d be surprised. I’m going to test my left-over SL3 for this in a few weeks.

JohnA, what you are indeed hearing is the effect of extra mid-bass boost, but you might also be adding significant interactions with mids and highs that are not the best. The ESL will overpower the tweeter in the MF speaker due to its line vs point source dispersion characteristics (you are in the ‘far field’ as the tweeter).

Ideally, you would use an electronic crossover in front of the two sets of speakers. Directing the <300 Hz energy to the MF unit.
But as I note in my SL3XC thread, balancing gain, phase and delay are all critical to getting just the right balance. For that, you really need something like the DriveRack 260, but even the much cheaper Behringer DCX2496 would let you experiment with this further.

It sound to me like the cure for your need is indeed to do a closed box line array. There are many threads on how to do this over at DIYAudio.com, including references to reasonably priced drive units.
The big challenge (although pretty simple design, really) is to build the box with that many holes in it.

You can always ‘outsource’ that to a cabinet maker.
In any case, sounds like you are enjoying the sound, and that’s what’s important.

 

[JonFo]

...

I don't know what Jonathan does for a living but me thinks he may have missed his calling... I do think Jonathan should go into the speaker manufacturing buisiness with his wife and cabinet maker friend. They design and make amazing DIY speakers. I think many of us would buy Jonathan's speaker in a heart beat...

We Love you Jonathan.

Gee Robin, thanks. And you haven’t even heard my setup yet. If you ever have the chance…

Since you wonder what I do for a living, I have a 60 Hr a week day job as a Software Development executive for a large multinational publishing company, which doesn’t leave a lot of spare time for speaker tweaking or listening. But it allows me to obtain all this nice gear, so I can’t complain

And hey, I still have a left over SL3, I could whip up another center …
Just kidding, after doing mine, I’m all done with that. Next project is something simpler…

Best part about the current job, and what allows me to actually do some speaker work is that I no longer travel to the UK every other week (which was true three years ago). Otherwise, I would have gone to audition your setup JohnA :cheers:

 

[JohnA]

...you might also be adding significant interactions with mids and highs that are not the best.

That was my prime fear. Meddling with the transparency of the panels.
However, listening tests showed that my fears were mostly unfounded. The ML tonal quality and presence just shine through. (it's easy to isolate just one pair of speakers by turning off their respective amps)

...The ESL will overpower the tweeter in the MF speaker due to its line vs point source dispersion characteristics (you are in the ‘far field’ as the tweeter). ..

Not as much as you'd think. The Kellys have nominal efficiency 95db/w/m (hello? )
Before I had two pairs of Kellys at 70degree angle, as I found it gave the best soundstage by experimenting having a blindfolded musician on my listening spot.
Two 95db/W/m pairs against a 89db/w/m seems like night and day, but in fact the preamp settings needed to be only 2-3db higher. Go figure eh?
Looks like the panels fill the room much better than sensitivity figures suggest.

It sound to me like the cure for your need is indeed to do a closed box line array. There are many threads on how to do this over at DIYAudio.com, including references to reasonably priced drive units.

I may actually consider this, the two subs I've got now I built myself, I'm no stranger to power tools (argh argh argh..../tim allen)

 

[JohnA]

...Otherwise, I would have gone to audition your setup JohnA :cheers:

He he
Notice the large glass window that looks over the conservatory and all through the garden outside. It's a very nice feature, but acoustically it's suicide. Hence the wide venetian blinds cunningly acting as deflectors

Also note the carefully placed rocks on the CD player or the 'air suspension' on which the DVD player and the DAC/preamp/CD are sitting upon.
That's 4psi in those kid-bike tubes:haha1: , fine-tuned by playing full blast the bassline of 'Fat of the Land' and pushing upwards the point where the CD skips

 

[Rich]

He is using SL3's not CLS's...the SL3's are the BIG version of the Aerius i...

Oops! My bad.

 

[tonyc]

A disastrous water heater leak has left me offline for over a week. Fortunately none of the stereo equipment was damaged. I was left with multiple pairs of ML's in my stereo room and could not resist the temptation to hook up a second set of speakers to the unused speaker outputs on my Rowland. So my wife and I listened to a pair of Summits and a pair of Aeons together. Serious fun, bigtime bass and more coherent and of a cloth than you would think. Talk about filling a room with sound! However, the carpet is now dry and all good things must come to an end...