Spire break-in period

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One more question and a possible solution.......

Do you have your Spire's position at the same distance from the front wall as you had your Vantage's ? and if so, what is that distance ? Absorption, diffusion or a combination of the two on the front wall.

So, paitence and persistence will pay off, for as good as the Vantage's are, and they are mighty good, don't kid yourself if you think the Spire's aren't better !!

I've moved anywhere from 2-3 ft. from the back wall with notable improvements in soundstage/focus - yet midrange continues to lack.

Keeping fingers crossed on upgraded wire ... perhaps the broader (lower mid) frequencies covered by the Spire's panel are revealing more of the Krell/source ...
 
Hi Fish,

Don't want to go off topic but I would question your general observation that 16 ga. wire is terrible and that 10 or 12 ga. wire is superior.

Prior to purchasing my Mapleshade speaker wire, which I have used for some four years now and is nowhere close to 10 or 12 ga., I used a Swiss wire called OCOS. This wire again was quite thin and performed more than admirably at 40' lengths.

IMHO, wire thickness does not necessarily equate to better performance.

GG
 
Hi Fish,

Don't want to go off topic but I would question your general observation that 16 ga. wire is terrible and that 10 or 12 ga. wire is superior.

Prior to purchasing my Mapleshade speaker wire, which I have used for some four years now and is nowhere close to 10 or 12 ga., I used a Swiss wire called OCOS. This wire again was quite thin and performed more than admirably at 40' lengths.

IMHO, wire thickness does not necessarily equate to better performance.

GG

do the math on those lengths of wire at those gauges their are defiantly losses. I do not have the numbers in front of me or the time to look it up right now but for the loads we put on our speakers there defiantly is degradation with a 16guage wire at 10-20 feet. I was just trying to think of anything he could cheaply and easily fix to help his problem
 
I've moved anywhere from 2-3 ft. from the back wall with notable improvements in soundstage/focus - yet midrange continues to lack. ...

Regardless, you'd still be better off with 4-6 ft !!! 2-3 ft is a bare minimum and must be used with absorption.

Hopefully your 'wire experiment' works !


Oh......'FISH'.... with regards to wire gauge, keep in mind that is but one component of the equation (resistence), when dealing with our Logans one must also address capacitence and inductance.
 
Hi Fish,

I think your idea is great start to potentially solve his issue and it's great you suggested it.

Regarding wire gauge, etc., I'm not going to do any math and I'm not to engage anyone on this issue.

All I can do is respectfully make you aware of my experiences and what I believe are questionable generalizations. If you think they are suspect, that's fine with me.

End of story. Back on track.

GG
 
I was not trying to prove a point just a suggestion I also think that their is something else going on here other than wire.
 
this is purely incorrect in my opinion. the idea that a poorly recorded piece of music will sound better on less revealing equipment is not really true although I have delegated certain cd's to my car the overall sound their is still very poor comparatively. my Logan's have never ever sounded bright ever! I have driven them with fairly modest equipment and still do by some standards.


From Barry Willis' Absolute Sound review of the Summit in the
March 2006 issue:

"For the first few days, the Summits were hooked up to my Marantz / Integra / Parasound Halo C2/A51 combo, in the heart of a combined music and home-theater system. A typical comment from visitors was "they sound bright," a reference to the Summit's energetic presentation, compelling midrange, and open, effortless treble."

"My standard reply is that live music is bright. Strike a cymbal with a drumstick – it has a sharp metallic ring, with fast attack and slow decay. Stand anywhere near a performing violinist, trumpeter, or sax player and then listen to how those instruments sound over most loudspeakers. The spine-tingling bite and shrillness are almost always absent. There is serious loss of energy between the original acoustic event and the reproduced recording. Cymbals as reproduced by fabric-dome tweeters don't usually sound sharp and metallic. They don't ring; they splash. Loudspeaker designers often make conscious decisions to create polite, inoffensive products that can offer some plausible verisimilitude with an almost infinite variety of recordings. Others use metal-dome tweeters that induce edginess in recordings where edginess shouldn't be. In either case an attempt has been made to balance sonic realism with marketable euphony."

Now he gave a very favorable review of the Summit but "sounding
bright" is a description i've read more than a few times
associated with ML products. Mr Willis may be right that many
designers consciously tone down their speakers so as not to
offend, but the fact remains at least for some ML owners
they can sound bright. Again, not necessarily on all
material, but i find that they are less tolerant of bright
recordings than other speakers. Not trying to anger any
ML diehards, just making an observation.
 
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I really do not agree they are accurate not bright klipsch horns are bright too name one.
 
Ah, the cumbersome line that separates the perception of an over abundance of treble and perception of accurate rendition of real world forwardness and 'grit'. It's a delicate line - one that's full of many variables, the foremost being personal perspective.

Unfortunately, I don't have any definitive answers to help anyone out here. Who does? :p However, what I do have is my own experiences to fall back on. For the purpose of this thread, I will focus on the Totem Acoustic Sttaf and the Martin Logan Vantage. Despite the big price gap between the two, both products are great performers and bring unique qualities to the table in their respective price class. Good though as they are, both share a number of differences with one another, the most obvious of which is the way they reproduce highs. Let's start with the Vantages:

The ML Vantage's sport great detail and produce what I consider to be polite and laid back treble presentation. What's so great about this combination is that you get tons of detail off of a recording without the negative sensation of being bombarded by an excess of treble. Perhaps the most important benefit you get from this type of presentation is that it enables you to enjoy music that you've otherwise had to set aside due to other high end loudspeakers rendering them darn near un-listenable. That's a good thing right? Well, I think so. But does that make it realistic and natural? To these ears - no.

The Totem's by contrast are a bit more energetic in the top end. You could even say they are a tad tilted upwards in that regard. Although they do not project sound in an aggressive manner ala a horn or point-source loudspeaker, what they do give you its the grit, bite, and texture that you hear from an instrument in the real world. The truth is that live music is often aggressive and gritty, and the Totem's capture these effects with a far greater sense of honesty than the Vantage's. The upside is that great recordings (and particularly instrumentals) can sound delightful. The downside is that a lot of poorly recorded material will be rendered for what it is, and sometimes, 'what it is' can be downright brutal. Some would call them accurate, others may call them bright. My ears lean towards the former. Does that make them the better speaker (with regards to treble at least)? No. It doesn't. It simply makes them different.

As always, it's a situation of yin and yang. I've found other products that bridge the gap between the Sttaf and the Vantage, but they too had shortcomings and/or qualities to them in critical areas I personally could not live with.

Some audiophile's believe it's all about linearity and accuracy, while others believe its all about an enjoyable (albeit colored) presentation. I've yet to find something that suits my own tastes in all regards, so for now, I will simply have to settle for living with both speakers. At the end of the day, I feel blessed that my life is good enough to where I can concern myself over things like this! :D
 
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