Source or Vantage

[crusty]

Hello,

I've been reading this site for a while but don't yet own Martin Logans. I’ve been considering a pair of them since I auditioned the Source. I really like its midbass, which gives it a strong sense of presence and foundation to the music, and balances well with the midrange and upper frequencies. It played as "one" and I was able to connect with the music better than with the Purities (which are similar to the Source except it's powered), as the Purities I auditioned had some difficulty opening up into the room. This also showed me that more expensive is not necessarily better. To the point, I really like the Source.

I have a dilemma in choosing between the Source and the Vantage.

I have the opportunity to purchase the Vantage new at a discount and this opportunity ends at the end of this month. I listened to the Vantage and found some inconsistencies in the bass. When I listened to Queen’s Bohemian Rhapsody, the bass notes in the beginning were inconsistent (some were louder and some were softer). I also listened to other music and found the midbass and bass to be somewhat weak and not in full balance with the rest of the frequencies. I did not find this to be the case with the Source. As such, I was not able to get a good feel for the midbass and bass in the Vantage and it did not play as "one", which I liked in the Source. As a result, I was not able to connect with the music as easily as I did with the Source.

I won’t have the opportunity to audition the Vantage again since they sold their demos, so I might have to fly blind on this one, something I am very hesitant to do. I was wondering if anyone can tell me what their experience is with the Vantage midbass and bass performance compared to the Source. Is the midbass as strong (as compared to the balance in the Source)? If anyone has Queen, maybe I can get some feedback regarding whether the issues I experienced are room issues or with the speaker.

I have a couple of weeks to make this decision and any feedback will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

crusty

 

[Feltran]

What was driving the speakers?
I was at one point trying to decide between Source and Vantage, but eventually decided to go with Purities, at least as a temporary solution because I couldn't manage a setup with proper amp and such yet; I've been led to believe that the MLs with larger panels require a particularly large amount of power. I think just about everyone here will say that the Vantage is a better speaker than the Source, but I could imagine getting better results from the Source if you weren't getting enough power to them.

With that said, the most important thing is how they sound to you.


As far as Source vs Purity, my understanding is that the Source with a good amp should sound better than Purity using a line level connection and the internal amp. The two speakers are really very similar, though, with the biggest difference (that I know of) being that the Purity uses aluminum cone woofers whereas the Source uses paper cones. If you use speaker level connections to both of them with the same amp, the Purity ought to sound at least as good. I could of course be wrong, though. I've always been a bit puzzled as to why Martin Logan says on their website "To achieve ultimate performance with the Purity use of the RCA line level connection is recommended."

 

[David Matz]

Hello,

I've been reading this site for a while but don't yet own Martin Logans. I’ve been considering a pair of them since I auditioned the Source. I really like its midbass, which gives it a strong sense of presence and foundation to the music, and balances well with the midrange and upper frequencies. It played as "one" and I was able to connect with the music better than with the Purities (which are similar to the Source except it's powered), as the Purities I auditioned had some difficulty opening up into the room. This also showed me that more expensive is not necessarily better. To the point, I really like the Source.

I have a dilemma in choosing between the Source and the Vantage.

I have the opportunity to purchase the Vantage new at a discount and this opportunity ends at the end of this month. I listened to the Vantage and found some inconsistencies in the bass. When I listened to Queen’s Bohemian Rhapsody, the bass notes in the beginning were inconsistent (some were louder and some were softer). I also listened to other music and found the midbass and bass to be somewhat weak and not in full balance with the rest of the frequencies. I did not find this to be the case with the Source. As such, I was not able to get a good feel for the midbass and bass in the Vantage and it did not play as "one", which I liked in the Source. As a result, I was not able to connect with the music as easily as I did with the Source.

I won’t have the opportunity to audition the Vantage again since they sold their demos, so I might have to fly blind on this one, something I am very hesitant to do. I was wondering if anyone can tell me what their experience is with the Vantage midbass and bass performance compared to the Source. Is the midbass as strong (as compared to the balance in the Source)? If anyone has Queen, maybe I can get some feedback regarding whether the issues I experienced are room issues or with the speaker.

I have a couple of weeks to make this decision and any feedback will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

crusty

The Vantage can reproduce excellent bass. The better the room acoustics, the better the bass. Many people here have room treatments to help with that. The better the upstream components, the better the bass. The Vantage is a world class speaker.

 

[mrmike]

Vantage has a 35hz adjustment on the back of the speaker. I could have been out of adjustment.

 

[tsmooth]

Vantage has a 35hz adjustment on the back of the speaker. I could have been out of adjustment.

With the adjustment and a well thought out room, the Vantage should win hands down. But if you have already liked what you have heard, you should pull the trigger on the Source. If you have the option of either you might want to go for the Vantage to avoid the "what if" a few months down the road. I purchased the Source only to make a move to the Vistas because of the ideas swimming in the back of my mind...

 

[Gordon]

I initially thought the bass/midbass was weak on the Vantage also. I also found the mids and highs to die for. So I was puzzled. It has to be better than what I heard. So, through research and some hand holding by a member, I think i achieved what I thought I was lacking.

Firstly, I installed some traps. Two Tricorners on the floor and two 2X4 panels on the walls directly behind the speakers. Then some cabling.(your choice). Positioning, which was part of the hand holding, was by far the greatest improvement in the bass/midbass presentation. Once the speakers locked onto the room with slight adjustment to the 35hz knob it was heaven. Upright bass was very tight and had the slam I was expecting. Double bass drum rifs by Tool were very clearly defined. The bass work on Patricia Barber in Paris was/is just stunning.

Correcting my room and positioning allowed me hear what the Vantage is capable of. I don't know if I could be more pleased. Well, maybe with the Summit but that is for another thread and after I pay property taxes this year. Choosing a speaker is a personal choice in what you want to hear, which either one you choose, it will be the right one.

Gordon

 

[RUR]

The Vantage can reproduce excellent bass. The better the room acoustics, the better the bass. Many people here have room treatments to help with that. The better the upstream components, the better the bass. The Vantage is a world class speaker.

I couldn't agree more. Anyone who wishes to hear what the Vantage is capable of in a well-treated room should get their hands on a copy of MFSL's remastered recording of Supertramp's first album. School, in particular, is loaded with very low frequency information, which the Vantage reproduces with jaw-dropping effect.

 

[crusty]

With the adjustment and a well thought out room, the Vantage should win hands down. But if you have already liked what you have heard, you should pull the trigger on the Source. If you have the option of either you might want to go for the Vantage to avoid the "what if" a few months down the road. I purchased the Source only to make a move to the Vistas because of the ideas swimming in the back of my mind...

tsmooth,

Since you've had the opportunity to own both the Source and the Vista, can you give your impression regarding the midbass on both. Does the Source have more midbass than the Vista (which I understand is similar to the Vantage without internal amplification)? Does the Vista have the same warmth and fullness of the Source? I have the opportunity to purchase one or the other but I don't want buyer's remorse whichever one I choose. I wish I can do a thorough audition of the Vantage, but at this point, there are no demos available near me.

To give a reference for what is important to me, I like warmth, good midbass, and good bass and midbass control (no billowing or bloated sound), and midrange with clarity and "in the room" presence. I found this balance in the Source, but am looking for the same balance and more of that midrange magic in the higher end ML models.

Thanks,
crusty

 

[David Matz]

tsmooth,

To give a reference for what is important to me, I like warmth, good midbass, and good bass and midbass control (no billowing or bloated sound), and midrange with clarity and "in the room" presence. I found this balance in the Source, but am looking for the same balance and more of that midrange magic in the higher end ML models.

Thanks,
crusty

Crusty,

What is your budget? Do you own room treatments? What other components do you own?

If you can afford it, get the Vantage. If your budget is limited, you may want to get better upstream components and room treatments which will give you more of what you are looking for. Vantages in a crappy room with lesser components may be a disappointment.

On the other hand, if you get a nice room with great components, the Vantage will sound that much better. If you go with the Purities, you will be itching to get the Vantage.

Welcome to the merry-go-round.

 

[crusty]

David,

I can afford the Vantage. I don't own room treatments but they will be sitting in front of curtains. I have a Marantz CD player going into a transformer passive, and into a solid state 150 watt amp. Interconnects and speaker cable wire are all Harmonic Technology Pro-11. At this point, I don't plan on biwiring unless cabling budget opens up a lot.
My current speakers (dynamic and dipoles from the midrange on up) are sitting with the front about 40 inches from the front wall, which is as far as I can pull out the Vantages. I have placed my listening seat in a spot where the bass modes in the room work the best without treatment. My current speakers have an 8 inch woofer (not powered) crossed over at 400 hz, the center of it is 23 inches above the floor. I don't know if this makes a difference but I get OK midbass now. Probably more an outcome of the components in the system, though.

I'm going to take a road trip this weekend to the nearest Tweeter to see if I can give the Vantage a good audition. They have it hooked to Cambridge Audio CD player and integrated in what I think is not a very good room. I don't know much about Cambridge Audio, so I don't know if they tend to be bass shy or too bright (or not). Hopefully they'll let me move things around, and adjust as needed, and I can get a decent audition.

 

[wrat]

When I auditioned the Vista and then the Vantage at Tweeter ,the room the Vista was in sucked as did the gear they had it hooked up to, The Vantage was in a much better room but not much better gear
(Yamaha Receiver). I had to bring them home to get an idea if I liked em.

 

[tsmooth]

The Vista has more presence in the mid-bass, but I have it bi-amped (the Source only has one pair of binding posts per speaker so you don't have that option). I also have decent treatments in the new place and the Source was in a smaller, untreated room. I am in the camp that you need to go for the best you can afford at the time, but you need to consider the whole setup to achieve what you are looking for. The experience will only be as good as the upstream components, but I think you can't go wrong with the Vantage. That way you can build around a solid foundation.

 

[David Matz]

David,

I can afford the Vantage. I don't own room treatments but they will be sitting in front of curtains. I have a Marantz CD player going into a transformer passive, and into a solid state 150 watt amp. Interconnects and speaker cable wire are all Harmonic Technology Pro-11. At this point, I don't plan on biwiring unless cabling budget opens up a lot.
My current speakers (dynamic and dipoles from the midrange on up) are sitting with the front about 40 inches from the front wall, which is as far as I can pull out the Vantages. I have placed my listening seat in a spot where the bass modes in the room work the best without treatment. My current speakers have an 8 inch woofer (not powered) crossed over at 400 hz, the center of it is 23 inches above the floor. I don't know if this makes a difference but I get OK midbass now. Probably more an outcome of the components in the system, though.

I'm going to take a road trip this weekend to the nearest Tweeter to see if I can give the Vantage a good audition. They have it hooked to Cambridge Audio CD player and integrated in what I think is not a very good room. I don't know much about Cambridge Audio, so I don't know if they tend to be bass shy or too bright (or not). Hopefully they'll let me move things around, and adjust as needed, and I can get a decent audition.

How much bass do you think the curtains absorb? I would bet not a whole lot. Whether you get the Source or the Vantage, room treatments are a must. A handful of room treatments made a bigger difference to me than any component upgrades. You can create them yourself, also. I am not sure how big your room is, but if you move them into the room a bit more, you should get better bass. (Same goes for the listening room at Tweeter - get them as far away from the wall as you can.) Also, is bringing your own equipment for the audition? Have fun auditioning!

 

[twich54]

I'm going to take a road trip this weekend to the nearest Tweeter to see if I can give the Vantage a good audition. They have it hooked to Cambridge Audio CD player and integrated in what I think is not a very good room. Hopefully they'll let me move things around, and adjust as needed, and I can get a decent audition.

Good luck with Tweeter, you'll need it !

Now regarding your mid-bass concerns with the Vantage.....was the speaker you were listening to fully broken in ? IMO, the bass driver on our M/L's takes upwards of a 100hrs to settle into it's own.

Possibly there was an anomoly with the bass drivers internal amp, afterall Vantages do have that 'mstery rumble' that is heard only when one places their ear next to the driver. Myself I have never heard this or any other artifacts from my listening position.

Also as the others have said, room acoustical treatments are a excellent 'bang for the buck' improvement.

Good Luck !

 

[crusty]

Thanks Everyone for all your feedback on the Source and Vantage, room treatments and Tweeters. I'll take them into consideration when auditioning the Vantage this weekend.

crusty

 

[crusty]

Vantage or Vista

I was able to auditioned both the Vantage and the Vista at Tweeters and thought the Vistas were warmer (fuller) sounding than the Vantage, but the Vantages were cleaner sounding. I was wondering if anyone has had experience biwiring the Vistas and how it changes the sound. If I can get a full yet cleaner sound through the Vistas, that might be the ticket.

Thanks,
crusty

 

[JohnLomnicki]

I was able to auditioned both the Vantage and the Vista at Tweeters and thought the Vistas were warmer (fuller) sounding than the Vantage, but the Vantages were cleaner sounding. I was wondering if anyone has had experience biwiring the Vistas and how it changes the sound. If I can get a full yet cleaner sound through the Vistas, that might be the ticket.

Thanks,
crusty

I'm biwiring the vistas with a Denon 3808, the panel sound didn't change that much, but the driver really opened up in the low range.

 

[tsmooth]

The Vista has more presence in the mid-bass, but I have it bi-amped (the Source only has one pair of binding posts per speaker so you don't have that option). I also have decent treatments in the new place and the Source was in a smaller, untreated room. I am in the camp that you need to go for the best you can afford at the time, but you need to consider the whole setup to achieve what you are looking for. The experience will only be as good as the upstream components, but I think you can't go wrong with the Vantage. That way you can build around a solid foundation.

That’s the way I currently run my Vistas, two amplifier channels per speaker. I would personally not set them up any other way after the change it made (unless I get some great $$$ amp). I had the same results as John, the panels where amazing before hand, but giving the woofers their own 200W to work with made a night and day deference in the sound I was hearing. The only thing I can equate it to would be adding a subwoofer that was quick, tight, and perfectly matched to the panels. The lower frequencies have depth and speration, as opposed to just a few boomy notes. It was really that big of a change.