PS Audio Gizmo

[Genesis]

Ok it appears those who have the device, Zippster and Moondoggie think it works. Question for you two............. are you running dedicated ac lines from your breaker box to your audio / viedeo gear ??

Well if the NH actually works twich then even a dedicated circuit to their equipment doesn't mean much if the ultimate power line that feeds their house (or flat) is shared with others. The random noise that could be inherent in the dedicated circuit to their HT room may also be inherent in the pipe that feeds the box and is shared with other houses or flats. Guess we'll have to go out and buy noise harvesters for the neighbourhood as well

 

[twich54]

Well if the NH actually works twich then even a dedicated circuit to their equipment doesn't mean much if the ultimate power line that feeds their house (or flat) is shared with others. The random noise that could be inherent in the dedicated circuit to their HT room may also be inherent in the pipe that feeds the box and is shared with other houses or flats. Guess we'll have to go out and buy noise harvesters for the neighbourhood as well

Genesis, maybe I'm missing the whole point of the Noise Harvester, I thought it was to "harvest" junk noise (dimmer's, small appl,etc) from a circuit that it was plugged into. I doubt very much that my neighbors dimmer switch has any impact on my stereo, especially since he is fed off a different transformer. As far as dedicated circuit for our audio gear, no debate on that whatsoever......it is the way to go !!

 

[Cherian]

A dedicated circuit is a good start. You get a true ground wire back to the main ground bus and you get a 15 or 20 amp Circuit breaker on one outlet. This gives one the ability to pull 1800 to 2400 watts off of one receptacle without having to share it with others, and you also also minimize wiring impedance.

All of what I have stated above are the benefits of a dedicated circuit.

However a dedicated circuit will not stop coupled high frequency normal mode (line to neutral) noise from getting on the dedicated line.

 

[twich54]

A dedicated circuit is a good start. You get a true ground wire back to the main ground bus and you get a 15 or 20 amp Circuit breaker on one outlet. This gives one the ability to pull 1800 to 2400 watts off of one receptacle without having to share it with others, and you also also minimize wiring impedance.

All of what I have stated above are the benefits of a dedicated circuit.

However a dedicated circuit will not stop coupled high frequency normal mode (line to neutral) noise from getting on the dedicated line.

Cherian, sounds as if you are a "sparky", very good. So what is the "best" way to get rid of the "noise" ??

 

[Cherian]

First a little background information about myself. I am the Engineering Manager for Powervar Inc and ETA Systems. Powervar manufactures high-end power conditioners for medical and industrial applications. Powervar about a year ago bought ETA Systems a small company making high-end pro audio power conditioners and power distribution units. I can tell you from first hand experience nothing in the world beats a low impedance isolation transformer based power conditioner. I have just finished designing some very high-end audio power conditioners for ETA Systems. www.etasys.com then if you go to products and look at digital rack mount conditioning you will see the new product I have developed. I must warn you this is a very high cost item. However having said this you can get 99% of its cleaning power if you look on eBay and get a Powervar or OneAC isolation transformer based power conditioner. Just make sure you get the largest one you can get your hands on anything rated for 10 amps or higher.

 

[twich54]

Thanks for the info Cherian !!

 

[Taz]

First a little background information about myself. I am the Engineering Manager for Powervar Inc and ETA Systems. Powervar manufactures high-end power conditioners for medical and industrial applications. Powervar about a year ago bought ETA Systems a small company making high-end pro audio power conditioners and power distribution units. I can tell you from first hand experience nothing in the world beats a low impedance isolation transformer based power conditioner. I have just finished designing some very high-end audio power conditioners for ETA Systems. www.etasys.com then if you go to products and look at digital rack mount conditioning you will see the new product I have developed. I must warn you this is a very high cost item. However having said this you can get 99% of its cleaning power if you look on eBay and get a Powervar or OneAC isolation transformer based power conditioner. Just make sure you get the largest one you can get your hands on anything rated for 10 amps or higher.

Cherian, Any thoughts on this one and the deal?http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?accspowr&1156544414

 

[Cherian]

Yes,

It is one of ours. Though we have never built a black one. My Guess is the seller has painted the unit black to match audio equipment. This is a very good unit. Just as an FYI the transformer inside this unit has a cost to us of $350.00.
Even though I did not design this unit to power audio equipment it will do an excellent job in this capacity. This 12 amp unit can deliver 1440 watts and even double that for a few cycles. Just remember all transformers make an audible hummmm. So in the dark and when it is quite you will hear it. This is normal. The audio power conditioner I designed for ETA Systems I reduced this audible humm by potting the center of the toroid transformer. The price listed on Audiogone is a very, very good one.

 

[jjqiv]

I can tell you from first hand experience nothing in the world beats a low impedance isolation transformer based power conditioner. ........ However having said this you can get 99% of its cleaning power if you look on eBay and get a Powervar or OneAC isolation transformer based power conditioner. Just make sure you get the largest one you can get your hands on anything rated for 10 amps or higher.

That opinion does not seem to follow the majority of opinions over on Audiogon where a certain manufacturer of capacitor based conditioners seems to rule the roost. I also remember seeing the Powervar getting flamed pretty badly for poor audio performance.

 

[Cherian]

The Powervar unit has Capacitor based filtering as well. We use Metallized Polyprylene capacitors on the secondary of the isolation transformer.

Again the Powervar units were and are designed for Medical and industrial applications. It was never designed for audio. Do I feel it can be used for audio applications? Absolutely it can. The principles of filtering of normal mode and common mode noise still apply. Most of our unit designs start filtering about 1kHZ and reach maximum attenuation between 90 to 100kHz. At this frequency the Powervar units attenuate up to –60db normal mode (Line to Neutral) and –80db on common mode (neutral to ground). Show me any filter without isolation that can do this?

When an isolation transformer is used I have a fixed leakage inductance to work with. Because the leakage inductance will not change I can design a very good L-C filter. This is more difficult to do with just capacitors because the inductance of the line is different at each location.

The con of using an isolation transformer based power conditioner is the addition of impedance. This is unavoidable when using an isolation transformer. This is why the isolation transformer must be of a good design. What we call ultra low impedance. 2 to 3% impedance maximum. If these design principles are adhered the power quality coming out of the Power conditioner will be very good.

I don’t know if you saw the video for the Noise Harvester. At the end of the video you see a scope demo. You see the voltage go from 20 V p-p to about 10 V p-p. The NH reduced the noise by half. Looks good but this is only about –6db of attenuation. A good isolation transformer based power conditioner would reduce it 0.04 V p-p or –50db.

Just food for thought.

 

[jjqiv]

The Powervar unit has Capacitor based filtering as well. We use Metallized Polyprylene capacitors on the secondary of the isolation transformer.

Again the Powervar units were and are designed for Medical and industrial applications. It was never designed for audio. Do I feel it can be used for audio applications? Absolutely it can. The principles of filtering of normal mode and common mode noise still apply. Most of our unit designs start filtering about 1kHZ and reach maximum attenuation between 90 to 100kHz. At this frequency the Powervar units attenuate up to –60db normal mode (Line to Neutral) and –80db on common mode (neutral to ground). Show me any filter without isolation that can do this?

When an isolation transformer is used I have a fixed leakage inductance to work with. Because the leakage inductance will not change I can design a very good L-C filter. This is more difficult to do with just capacitors because the inductance of the line is different at each location.

The con of using an isolation transformer based power conditioner is the addition of impedance. This is unavoidable when using an isolation transformer. This is why the isolation transformer must be of a good design. What we call ultra low impedance. 2 to 3% impedance maximum. If these design principles are adhered the power quality coming out of the Power conditioner will be very good.

I don’t know if you saw the video for the Noise Harvester. At the end of the video you see a scope demo. You see the voltage go from 20 V p-p to about 10 V p-p. The NH reduced the noise by half. Looks good but this is only about –6db of attenuation. A good isolation transformer based power conditioner would reduce it 0.04 V p-p or –50db.

Just food for thought.

No I have not watched the video. For the time being, I quite content with my DIY Hydra's. I brought one over to my friends. After pulling it out of his system, he is not happy with his system's performance anymore. He has some cap's on order and all the other part's ready for a quick build.

Another product I am curious about are the Enacom speaker filters.

 

[Genesis]

Cherian, many thanks for your extensive input and info on Powervar units, really enjoyed your perspective on this topic.

Ok, what's the consensus now on the $80 PS Audio NH?

 

[DTB300]

Ok, what's the consensus now on the $80 PS Audio NH?

From what Cherian wrote:

"The NH reduced the noise by half. Looks good but this is only about –6db of attenuation. A good isolation transformer based power conditioner would reduce it 0.04 V p-p or –50db."

I would guess by this comment that for $100 the NH reduces -6dB but a good Iso would reduce by -50dB. But what would a good Iso cost - $250 like the Powervar on sale over at Audiogon???

You could then look at the cost versus performance and possibly base the purchase on that. But another thing is, would the Iso have a detriment on the sound compared to the NH? So far Zip stated the NH's improved his sound. Now we need to hear a comment back on Powervar or a similar Iso.

Dna

 

[Cherian]

Will a good iso transformer based power conditioner improve sound quality? I can’t answer this? "Trust your years." What a good iso transformer based power conditioner will do is give your equipment clean power, and protect your equipment from high voltage spikes. For good sound I say get good equipment that you enjoy the sound of (amp, preamp, speakers) but to protect your equipment nothing beats a good iso transformer based power conditioner.

 

[Reverb2009]

The NH is not designed to replace your power conditioner; it is designed to work with it. You should still run a good power conditioner with surge protection; most conditioners are rated at around 20 dB of noise reduction. The NH will give you another 6 dB on top of that. You can even add more harvesters around the house and increase the noise reduction from 6dB. I have only tried one, but I am told if one is good two is better. The Idea is that it doesn’t just remove the noise but destroys it.

A power conditioner removes the noise for those components that are connected to it. Wouldn’t it be nice to kill the noise at its source? Well that the point of the Harvester, kill the nose before it gets to your system. Plug one in next to you refrigerator, your bed room TV, light dimmer, power conditioner, ETC. Any device in your home that is or could be adding nose onto your power line that can affect your system. Stop the noise before it gets to your power conditioner and your power conditioner become more efficient.

All of your audio components add there own noise back onto the line, a good power conditioner should help to isolate these components from each other and limit there interaction. But plugging a NH into the back of your power line conditioner can kill the noise before it can get from your amp to the pre-amp. My P1000 power regenerator does a good job regenerating power for my system, but even it adds noise back on to the power line.

Are you starting to see the possibilities?

I would say it does work, I can hear a difference.

The difference was very noticeable with my Monstercable HTPS-7000, and that had isolated transformers for the digital and analog sources. I do notice some improvement in audio and video using the NH with my PS Audio P1000 power plant, but not as much as with a filtered power conditioner. The power plant does such a good job regenerating power the NH improvements are not as grate but are there.

I am not going to sit here and try and sell you on this neat little device, I am not a dealer or an employee of PS Audio, I am just a hobbyist. If your interested in the Noise harvester, I say pick one up and try it for your self. I like mine enough that I am thinking about picking up a five pack.

 

[Genesis]

Zip...you're obviously a proponent of the NH...based on your post, what's actually happening in your system when you state that the NH can "kill" the noise before it gets to your amp? Please be specific...

 

[Cherian]

I agree with what you say Joe if you like something then by all means one should use it.

The only statement I disagree with is one will not get an additional -6db of attenuation if you plug a NH into a power conditioner. Attenuation in db is not additive. db is a logarithmic scale. Plugging the NH into a -20db attenuating power conditioner will yield maybe -20.01 db of attenuation.

 

[Reverb2009]

Zip...you're obviously a proponent of the NH...based on your post, what's actually happening in your system when you state that the NH can "kill" the noise before it gets to your amp? Please be specific...

If you have not I suggest you watch the Ps Audio video on the Noise harvester.

It will answer a lot of your questions.


How it works.
"The Noise Harvester™ is a plug in module that can be placed on any AC receptacle. Once connected, the Noise Harvester begins to harvest and redirect the AC line noise into a storage tank and then converts it to light!"

Light = Kill. Noise is gone.


Window Media Player
http://www.psaudio.com/downloads/harvester.wmv

QuickTime Player
http://www.psaudio.com/downloads/harvester.mov

 

[Reverb2009]

I agree with you say Joe if you like something then by all means one should use it.

The only statement I disagree with is one will not get an additional -6db of attenuation if you plug a NH into a power conditioner. Attenuation in db is not additive. db is a logarithmic scale. Plugging the NH into a -20db attenuating power conditioner will yield maybe -20.01 db of attenuation.

I have no way to measure what a NH will give you with a power conditioner so I am just guessing. Fact is power conditioner plus NH = better sound, and that’s all I care about.

I did not invent the thing so the information I know about it is what I have gotten from that video, PS Audio’s website and from Paul McGowan of Ps Audio. If you want to get deep into the specs of this device you will have to ask PS Audio.

 

[twich54]

Ok, I've decided to give it a try ordered mine today from Audio Advisor. I'll let everyone know how it works (or not) for me. It's got a thirty day money back guarantee, that's good enough for me.

Hey Joe, BTW PS Audio said your commission check "is in the mail" !