Can anyone suggest the power requirement for Summit if I wish to upgrade from SS amp to Tube amp.? I was going through Opera Audio's Mono Amps and found their price attractive. I have a heart to go for Single ended Class A without global feedback. My room measure 25' by 13' but my listening position is about 12 ' feet from the speakers and the speakers are around 4' from the wall.
Power requirement for tube Amp to drive Summit
- Thread starter abhijit
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roberto
Well-known member
Hola abhijit. Because the Summits are very sensitive (92 dBs/2.83V/m) allows you to use a wide variety of amps, this means low power capacity. I have a customer that uses in his system a 30 W/ch triode mode power amp and sure can play clean and loud!. Try them and listen. Choose the one that you liked most, regardless of power. Happy listening,
Roberto.
David Matz
Well-known member
I am not sure what SS amp you currently own, but after extensive auditioning, I think the more expensive SS amps best the expensive tube amps. That said, some people prefer the less expensive tube amps because of euphonic distortions. Thus, I would audition both tube amps and high quality SS.
I auditioned a few tube amps such as the BAT VK 55 (55 wpc) - nice sugar coated midrange and intoxicating to listen to, but is just not alive. The $9K BAT VK 75SE (75 wpc) was more transparent and had nice texture, but also lacks dynamics of SS. Mac 275 is great, but lacks detail and texture of the BAT. If I had to buy a tube amp, I would go with BAT 55 or an older CJ. However, none of the tube amps could stand up to a quality SS amp with a lot of power, to my taste. The Sanders amp easily smoked the $9K BAT. Try SS amps costing $5K or higher, if you have the cash. Examples to try: Plinius 301, McCormack DNA 500, Sanders, Parasound JC-1's, etc. My personal favorite is the SS Conrad Johnson 350. It combines all of the virtues of tubes and SS in one.
Do listen for yourself, though.
For a tube amp with the Summits, I personally wouldn't go less than 50 wpc and preferably something closer to 150 wpc, but it all depends on the quality of the amp, what kind of sound you like, and how hard you intend to drive them.
I like Jazz and listen at a moderate volume. Currently, I am using Plinius SA-102 power amp with Cary Audio SL-05 pre-amp
Whats a tube amp ?????????????????
J/K .......... Tubes tubes tubes.... . The day you fire your brand new amp up its wearing out the tubes. . The sound is not broke in until you have 500 hrs under the tubes then you better hope that you get that window of prime listening one day as then the tubes start to sound worse as time goes on. You will end up spending more time searching for that magical day and replacing tubes than listening to the music.
SS can be repeated every time with consistent results ! Good SS amps are not cheap. With a big SS amp you have current and power especially if you get a Class A amp that is stable into low impedances. Many are used by the members here. Don't disparage SS amps yet before you try a few good ones.
JUST MY .02 worth
J/K .......... Tubes tubes tubes....
. The day you fire your brand new amp up its wearing out the tubes. . The sound is not broke in until you have 500 hrs under the tubes then you better hope that you get that window of prime listening one day as then the tubes start to sound worse as time goes on. You will end up spending more time searching for that magical day and replacing tubes than listening to the music. SS can be repeated every time with consistent results ! Good SS amps are not cheap. With a big SS amp you have current and power especially if you get a Class A amp that is stable into low impedances. Many are used by the members here. Don't disparage SS amps yet before you try a few good ones.
JUST MY .02 worth
I am currently using Plinius SA-102 AMP , Cary SLP-05 PRE-AMP & Wadia 861 CD player with top of the line Harmonix power and interconnects cables
tonepub
Senior Member
I see you bought that Premier 350 after all...
Pretty nice amp, huh?
But seriously if you do go for the tube thing, Here are a couple that I've heard with the Summits that I really enjoyed
The Manley 250 monos
Audio Research Classic 150 monos
Audio Research VT-130
Whats a tube amp ?????????????????
J/K .......... Tubes tubes tubes....
SS can be repeated every time with consistent results ! Good SS amps are not cheap. With a big SS amp you have current and power especially if you get a Class A amp that is stable into low impedances. Many are used by the members here. Don't disparage SS amps yet before you try a few good ones.
JUST MY .02 worth
God that's funny!
Bernard
Well-known member
Reading that made me scramble to my tube amps to make sure they were still fine; I needed reassurance real quick. So I turned them on (sounds kinky; I actually just hit the power buttons
), and almost cued up an LP to listen to, then remembered that with tubes you have to wait for an hour for them to warm up After an hour of nail biting I finally played that LP. Relief - I am still in that glorious, magical window.I have been puttering around with hi-fi for a long time, and most of the time I forget the equipment and just enjoy the music. I guess that means that I am not a true audiophile.
BTW about 15 years ago, when I was using a $1,500 SS Class A Bedini amp to drive my Quad 57s, I happened to come across an aged Dyna Stereo 70 tube amp, which I bought for about $100. The tubes were probably 20 or 30 years old, but the Dyna just blew away the SS amp. I was hooked on tubes! As was ponted out in other recent threads, this just represents my personal preferences; others would perhaps have preferred the SS amp, and that's fine.
CAP, as risabet said....your post is somewhat comical !!
Regarding your quote above, he's using an SA-102 for crying out load, yes I own one as do others. But if you think that amp is not at least in the category of "good" let alone great you are seriously deaf !! LOL !!
Regarding Tube amps...... 500 hrs for tubes to sound good ??? 100% pure BS !
Bernard
Well-known member
FWIW, you are at a similar state as I was last fall.....both of us have the same amp, and you can see what I did to satisfy my "Tube Twitch". After almost five months, the honeymoon continues !
tonepub
Senior Member
I do agree with Risbet on the tube thing, though I don't know if it's as bad
as he says it is. But I have been aggravated more than once over the years when changing tubes and not getting the same sound that I was accustomed to before.
That's why as a reviewer that has their system on 12 hours a day (sometimes more) I went to a SS power amp after years of being a tube lover. I still have tubes in my preamp (only 4) and three matched sets of NOS as backup, but the SS stuff is getting really good.
I've heard amps from Pass, Luxman, CJ and Clayton just to name a few that give me 98% of the things I liked with tubes without the headaches. And the small signal tubes in my preamp last pretty long, so it's not an issue.
If you only listen a couple of hours a day, it's not so bad....
as he says it is. But I have been aggravated more than once over the years when changing tubes and not getting the same sound that I was accustomed to before.
That's why as a reviewer that has their system on 12 hours a day (sometimes more) I went to a SS power amp after years of being a tube lover. I still have tubes in my preamp (only 4) and three matched sets of NOS as backup, but the SS stuff is getting really good.
I've heard amps from Pass, Luxman, CJ and Clayton just to name a few that give me 98% of the things I liked with tubes without the headaches. And the small signal tubes in my preamp last pretty long, so it's not an issue.
If you only listen a couple of hours a day, it's not so bad....
I use a 24 watt Single Ended Triode class A amp with 520 V3 tubes or sometimes swap them for a pair 300BXLS power tubes. I've been using these tubes for over 3 years now on a pair of Summits and they consistently sound glorious. From what I read in some of these threads my system isn't supposed to sound as good as it should with this amp but no one who's actually heard my setup complain about the sound and my friends are the type to hold back and sugarcoat their opinions.
I occasionally change over to SS amps for a different sound and that sounds good too. Each amp source has its strengths but neither one is at all bad.
The Summits 92db rating represent a versatile speaker that can bring out the best in a wide-range of amplifier types and power capabilities. There are many good amps that can be used and yes some will sound better to your ears than others. You'll need to define your own preference by trying different components, and changes in your setup to include experimenting with room acoustics.
By the way, my tube gear is ready to play in 15 minutes. My SS gear can take hours to warm up to the tube quality of sound but once it's warm its smooth...
Just to emphasize versatility, I've used a 16 watt Cary 300SEI with Summits, an Art Audio Jota 24 watts, 220 watt Electrocompaniet AW220 mono amps and a pair of 600 watt Nemo mono amps that are currently settling in with the Summits. The lower powered tube amps won't play as loud as the SS amps but they will play with a bigger soundstage and depth then the SS amps. They are all good in their own certain way. However, the Nemos are just getting warmed up and will need some hours on them to hear what they are really capable of.
I occasionally change over to SS amps for a different sound and that sounds good too. Each amp source has its strengths but neither one is at all bad.
The Summits 92db rating represent a versatile speaker that can bring out the best in a wide-range of amplifier types and power capabilities. There are many good amps that can be used and yes some will sound better to your ears than others. You'll need to define your own preference by trying different components, and changes in your setup to include experimenting with room acoustics.
By the way, my tube gear is ready to play in 15 minutes. My SS gear can take hours to warm up to the tube quality of sound but once it's warm its smooth...
Just to emphasize versatility, I've used a 16 watt Cary 300SEI with Summits, an Art Audio Jota 24 watts, 220 watt Electrocompaniet AW220 mono amps and a pair of 600 watt Nemo mono amps that are currently settling in with the Summits. The lower powered tube amps won't play as loud as the SS amps but they will play with a bigger soundstage and depth then the SS amps. They are all good in their own certain way. However, the Nemos are just getting warmed up and will need some hours on them to hear what they are really capable of.
Great post, Craig. You make an important point that the Summits are quite versatile and can sound fabulous with so many different amps that we are really limited only by our budget, imagination, and personal preferences.
I am curious. From your experience, how would you characterize dynamics and dynamic transient response of your Summits using your single ended triode vs. something like your Nemos?
Also, how does the midrange liquidity differ from the SET to the big monoblocs?
As you say, they all sound great. Just different flavors.
I just now got the Nemos back from being serviced so last night was the first chance I've had to hear them. After connecting everything and flipping the switch I was quite relieved to find that they actually worked after all I went through with these amps. It was an ordeal to say the least. However, they sounded like crap for the first hour and I was starting to worry that something was still messed up. It turned out to be nothing more than the new parts in the amp burning in. This was solid proof to me that burn of electrical audio equipment is a fact and not a myth. It sounded very bright with very little bass and a very small soundstage and yet the imaging was very precise.
After an hour or so the sound started to open up and bloom. I could literally hear them improving with each song played and never heard such a drastic example of burn-in before. I'm sure I'll need to put plenty of hours on it before I can make a fair assessment or comparison to other amps. When I put new tubes in the Art Audio amp it was also a little bright for a while but was not quite as drastic as this.
I'll review the Nemos later but for now I'll get back to the thread topic. My point was that moderate powered tubes amps can sound nice on the Summits but may compromise in some areas while being strong in others. For example, while the bass from the Art Audio Jota is pretty good it is not the best I've heard. The tightest and most articulate bass and the cleanest highs I've heard was from a Krell amp. The best midrange and 3D like soundstage I've heard has been from SET tube amps. Hopefully, the Nemos will have the least compromises of any amps I've heard so far.
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The dynamics is probably the biggest difference between the two extremes o using a 24 watt class A SET amp and these 600 watt SS monos. The SET amp is very musical up to a certain volume level and holds it own at moderate listening levels. But once you turn up the knob above that it begins to fall apart and start to sound unpleasant. There is no way it's going to keep up with a monster SS amp. However, when you keep the SET amp within it's optimal operating range for driving Summits it is nice. This is why it's not for everyone but for certain types of music its certainly a contender.
I'm sure this amp matched up with a reasonably efficient pair of box speakers will produce some great dynamics. It just amazes me that the Summits can work with medium or low powered tube amps when many other electrostats simply won't. The 92db rating on these is what makes this model so much more versatile even though the impedance drops pretty low at high freqs.
Someday when I acquire a pair of CLSs I'll see how this tube amp stacks up against the Nemo monsters. That will definitely be more of a challenge for them.
By the way, there was a recent thread on Audio Asylum that talked about using SET tube amps with Summits. I'll see if I can dig it up.
Thanx Craig for your your valuable information. I am thinking of Audio-Note' P2-SE 18 watts RMS per channel. My room measures 25' by 13 ' . My listening position is 14' feet from the front wall and my speakers are 4 feet from the front wall and 21/2 ' from the side walls. I mostly listen to Jazz. I have been offered USD 2000.00 for a pre-owned one.
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