Allen, your statement above is by far the most important one when searching out 'protection' for our components, myself I don't trust any of them, therefore I unplug when I'm not around, better peace of mind for me.
Power Conditioners - Imaging (Summit)
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Allen, your statement above is by far the most important one when searching out 'protection' for our components, myself I don't trust any of them, therefore I unplug when I'm not around, better peace of mind for me.
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Allen,
Dave alluded to this but here's my concern.
Clearly, RSA makes a great "power line conditioning" product. However, based on your inquiry and their apparent lack of publicized information regarding surge protection, one has to wonder why they don't want to talk about that in their ads.
One would think that cleaning up incoming AC to allow your gear to sound better is as important as providing surge protection for your gear. From a marketing perspective, you would think any company would want any potential customer to know about "both" benefits.
Frankly, I don't understand the apparent intentional omission of this "other" benefit in their marketing material.
GG
Dave alluded to this but here's my concern.
Clearly, RSA makes a great "power line conditioning" product. However, based on your inquiry and their apparent lack of publicized information regarding surge protection, one has to wonder why they don't want to talk about that in their ads.
One would think that cleaning up incoming AC to allow your gear to sound better is as important as providing surge protection for your gear. From a marketing perspective, you would think any company would want any potential customer to know about "both" benefits.
Frankly, I don't understand the apparent intentional omission of this "other" benefit in their marketing material.
GG
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gordonmenninger
Well-known member
Sorry, even though you just want opinions on power conditioners I firmly think if you want to improve speaker imaging you need to work on room treatments before thinking of a pc... Panels behind my main speakers (SL3's and my Theater i center, as well as bass traps in the front corners) have made pretty much more of a difference than any component upgrade I have made so far (except my JL audio Fathoms!).
Power conditioners I think are one of the more gray areas of audio, some swear by them and some loathe them as snake oil.. Take one home if you can and hook up your equipment and see if it sounds any better.
good luck in your search!
Power conditioners I think are one of the more gray areas of audio, some swear by them and some loathe them as snake oil.. Take one home if you can and hook up your equipment and see if it sounds any better.
good luck in your search!
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Rich is right, again.
Hi Gordon,
Totally agree.
Last night, I plugged my Pass amp into my dedicated 20 amp wall outlet instead of my Furman.
Thank you Rich for the encouragement to do so.
First impressions. More open, better dimensionality, less strident. All in all, easier on the ears, improved musicality (less hi fi) with no increase in background noise.
Have a call into Pass regarding potential damage to amp in a surge / brown out event.
GG
Hi Gordon,
Totally agree.
Last night, I plugged my Pass amp into my dedicated 20 amp wall outlet instead of my Furman.
Thank you Rich for the encouragement to do so.
First impressions. More open, better dimensionality, less strident. All in all, easier on the ears, improved musicality (less hi fi) with no increase in background noise.
Have a call into Pass regarding potential damage to amp in a surge / brown out event.
GG
I was kind of surprised by the references here of a lack of marketing material on the RSA website concerning protection so I went and looked.
Each product description lists "Protection" as part of the description and in the product brochure that is on the site it gives more "protection" detail. But understandably it focuses on the fact that RSA PLCs give protection without compromising dynamics, restricting power, while still lowering the noise floor and yet increasing transparency and detail.
This was a quote on the e-brochure
"To provide safety measures to insure against
component threatening blackouts, brownouts, and
severe line spikes without limiting current"
Further almost all PLC products use filters and fuses as protection from electrical gremlins and as such my experience has been that these filters and fuses cause a compromise in power limiting and in dynamics, noise floor, detail, transparency, etc. That is with the exception of RSA Power Line Conditioners. I researched the heck out of PLCs to find just the right one, if it even existed. As of today my experience along with the same experiences as several others on this forum have found that the RSA delivers on its promised benefits. That is not to say that there may not be another PLC that can do the same, it just that I tried several and the difference in the RSA units was striking.
I currently have two 20 amp dedicated lines for my 5.1 CLX-based system and 2 dedicated 20 amp lines to my main 7.2 ML home theater system upstairs. I also run a RSA unit for my bedroom which is a 7.1 ML based HT system. I had other types of PLCs in before discovering the RSAs because the power here in Indiana is sketchy at best. Surges, spikes, brownouts and lightning strikes happen here on average more than once a week. Not to mention noisey and unstable AC due to the grain elevator which runs 24/7 and is practically next door. After losing thousands of dollars on sensitive equipment when I first moved in, I installed PLCs and UPSs thoughout the property. Going naked to a 20 amp circuit is not an option, although we don't have a single curtain in any window in the house and I have been known to go outside nak........okay that's a different discussion.
Anyway, the point is that I believe most RSA dealers will allow you to do an in-house demo, that way you can see for yourself, the benefits of PLC the RSA way versus naked to your 20 amp circuit or against another PLC, there really is a difference and the difference sounds way better IMHO and I am not alone on this......although it is because I am alone that I can go outside nake........sorry different discussion.
Each product description lists "Protection" as part of the description and in the product brochure that is on the site it gives more "protection" detail. But understandably it focuses on the fact that RSA PLCs give protection without compromising dynamics, restricting power, while still lowering the noise floor and yet increasing transparency and detail.
This was a quote on the e-brochure
"To provide safety measures to insure against
component threatening blackouts, brownouts, and
severe line spikes without limiting current"
Further almost all PLC products use filters and fuses as protection from electrical gremlins and as such my experience has been that these filters and fuses cause a compromise in power limiting and in dynamics, noise floor, detail, transparency, etc. That is with the exception of RSA Power Line Conditioners. I researched the heck out of PLCs to find just the right one, if it even existed. As of today my experience along with the same experiences as several others on this forum have found that the RSA delivers on its promised benefits. That is not to say that there may not be another PLC that can do the same, it just that I tried several and the difference in the RSA units was striking.
I currently have two 20 amp dedicated lines for my 5.1 CLX-based system and 2 dedicated 20 amp lines to my main 7.2 ML home theater system upstairs. I also run a RSA unit for my bedroom which is a 7.1 ML based HT system. I had other types of PLCs in before discovering the RSAs because the power here in Indiana is sketchy at best. Surges, spikes, brownouts and lightning strikes happen here on average more than once a week. Not to mention noisey and unstable AC due to the grain elevator which runs 24/7 and is practically next door. After losing thousands of dollars on sensitive equipment when I first moved in, I installed PLCs and UPSs thoughout the property. Going naked to a 20 amp circuit is not an option, although we don't have a single curtain in any window in the house and I have been known to go outside nak........okay that's a different discussion.
Anyway, the point is that I believe most RSA dealers will allow you to do an in-house demo, that way you can see for yourself, the benefits of PLC the RSA way versus naked to your 20 amp circuit or against another PLC, there really is a difference and the difference sounds way better IMHO and I am not alone on this......although it is because I am alone that I can go outside nake........sorry different discussion.
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tonepub
Senior Member
Actually the designer told me he just took surge protection as a given, and was much more concerned with sonic benefits. He's got a number of letters from customers that have had their homes hit by lightning and have had every bit of other electronics in the house (except for what was plugged into the RSA boxes) fried by the surge.
I will pass this on though, because you're right, it's something they should probably mention.
If only my wife were so gracious . . .
Glad I helped. I accept no responsibility for potential surge damage though.
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
First off, my apologies for not fully researching the "protection" offered by RSA products. It's in their marketing material but somewhat de-emphasized overall.
Secondly, my latest "experience" with PLC's and wall outlets reinforces, at least to me, how AC, conditioned or otherwise, really impacts the "final" sound one hears from ones system.
Almost falls into the vodoo / how to explain this phenomena. What's disconcerting is the lack of predictability and again validates the importance of letting your ears decide what is right.
GG
Secondly, my latest "experience" with PLC's and wall outlets reinforces, at least to me, how AC, conditioned or otherwise, really impacts the "final" sound one hears from ones system.
Almost falls into the vodoo / how to explain this phenomena. What's disconcerting is the lack of predictability and again validates the importance of letting your ears decide what is right.
GG
Phoenix3434
Member
Now, it's nice and everything that the RSA unit does not limit the dynamic power. That said, does it actually do a good job at "protecting" your equipment - i.e. against current surges.
Sounds like a trade-off to me.
EDIT:
oops. Gordon already brought up the point on the 2nd page.
My advice would be to check how much equipment insurance they provide - should be a good indication of how much "trust" they have in their own protection.
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I have tried many PLC's. In the end, I have settled on Audio Magic Nexus with the UberBuss.
See this thread: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=68006.0
Dave Elledge from PI Audio is a great, stand up guy who offers a 30 day trial FOC.
http://www.piaudiogroup.com/prod_filtration_omni.aspx
See this thread: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=68006.0
Dave Elledge from PI Audio is a great, stand up guy who offers a 30 day trial FOC.
http://www.piaudiogroup.com/prod_filtration_omni.aspx
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
If only my wife were so gracious . . .
Glad I helped. I accept no responsibility for potential surge damage though.
Rich,
Normally I will make a change and listen for a week or so before reversing the process.
Friend came over, who is familiar with my system, and had a listen.
He (non-audio type) asked me to switch the cord and I plugged the amp back into the PLC.
Difference was immediately audible to me and I was standing up, off to the left of the left speaker.
He had a bit of the deer in the lights look and couldn't describe the difference.
I switched back, amp into wall outlet, and it was the AHH moment. Bigger stage, louder, less congested, image better defined.
Point of interest. Friend didn't comment on the difference going from wall to PLC. Much more obvious to him going from PLC to wall.
Thanks again Amigo.
And as much as I would like to audition a RSA unit, I'm going to pass due to financial realities. I'm going to be buying another vehicle to replace my beloved Suby this March. Need to save $.
Best,
Gordon
Audiophiliac
Well-known member
I do not know the complete merit of this, but I was always "told" that your power amplifiers normally are not effected by AC surges, brown-outs, etc. to the point that it is dangerous for them to be plugged directly into the wall outlets. The large transformers and possibly capacitance provide a level of protection from these power issues.
Clue me in if that logic is misleading or flat out wrong.
Clue me in if that logic is misleading or flat out wrong.
Now, it's nice and everything that the RSA unit does not limit the dynamic power. That said, does it actually do a good job at "protecting" your equipment - i.e. against current surges.
Sounds like a trade-off to me.
EDIT:
oops. Gordon already brought up the point on the 2nd page.
My advice would be to check how much equipment insurance they provide - should be a good indication of how much "trust" they have in their own protection.
I think you need to re-read the thread. Every PLC provides good if not equal levels of protection, but dynamics is the problem. I am not saying that there are not others that can match RSA, but if you call PS Audio and ask them about putting your amp on the PPP, they will tell you not too. Not because of Dynamics so much but a power amp along with your other components can easily exceed 1100 or 1200 watts which will break your PPP.
That is exactly what they told me. Then on top of that I did a shootout between the RSA Danielle and the PPP to see if the PPP limited the dynamics, it did. So I moved PPP to components and put RSA on the Simaudio Moon Titan.
Now, it's nice and everything that the RSA unit does not limit the dynamic power. That said, does it actually do a good job at "protecting" your equipment - i.e. against current surges.
Sounds like a trade-off to me.
EDIT:
oops. Gordon already brought up the point on the 2nd page.
My advice would be to check how much equipment insurance they provide - should be a good indication of how much "trust" they have in their own protection.
I think you need to re-read the thread. Every PLC provides good if not equal levels of protection, but dynamics is the problem. I am not saying that there are not others that can match RSA, but if you call PS Audio and ask them about putting your amp on the PPP, they will tell you not too. Not because of Dynamics so much but a power amp along with your other components can easily exceed 1100 or 1200 watts which will break your PPP.
That is exactly what they told me. Then on top of that I did a shootout between the RSA Danielle and the PPP to see if the PPP limited the dynamics, it did. So I moved PPP to components and put RSA on the Simaudio Moon Titan.
robertawillisjr
Well-known member
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About where to connect the power amp. It depends
Some manufacturers go through great lengths to design and implement bulletproof power supplies (Krell, Mark Levinson and others). This is part of the reason they are so big.
The state of the art for PLC's has gotten very much better so amplifier size of conventionly designed amps are getting smaller.
Regardless you need to consider dynamics, if you have a high current demand amplifier. If the power supply is not well designed, you need a PLC.
When questioned, PS Audio has advised me to use the PPP with only the amp connected to it (I didn't buy one). RSA, Shunyata and Dmitri are good candidates here.
If you have a digital switching amp, its current demands are drastically lower. And (FROM WHAT I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DETERMINE) the power sections are not as we ll designed as many older high end amps. You should discuss the types of PLC that may not be compatible with the manufacturer.
I have every thing (but my speakers. I use PS Audio duets for them) plugged into my Shunyata Guardian Pro units (Plasma and digital on one unit. Power amp and analog on the other. Does the amp sound different (Mark Levinson 335)? Not that my old ears can tell.
If you can't afford new, then perhaps used (must be very careful) will do.
Give the declining state of our power infrastructure, you are strongly advised to protect your equipment. If you don't, I strongly advise you to physically disconnect your high value items when not in use.
Some manufacturers go through great lengths to design and implement bulletproof power supplies (Krell, Mark Levinson and others). This is part of the reason they are so big.
The state of the art for PLC's has gotten very much better so amplifier size of conventionly designed amps are getting smaller.
Regardless you need to consider dynamics, if you have a high current demand amplifier. If the power supply is not well designed, you need a PLC.
When questioned, PS Audio has advised me to use the PPP with only the amp connected to it (I didn't buy one). RSA, Shunyata and Dmitri are good candidates here.
If you have a digital switching amp, its current demands are drastically lower. And (FROM WHAT I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DETERMINE) the power sections are not as we ll designed as many older high end amps. You should discuss the types of PLC that may not be compatible with the manufacturer.
I have every thing (but my speakers. I use PS Audio duets for them) plugged into my Shunyata Guardian Pro units (Plasma and digital on one unit. Power amp and analog on the other. Does the amp sound different (Mark Levinson 335)? Not that my old ears can tell.
If you can't afford new, then perhaps used (must be very careful) will do.
Give the declining state of our power infrastructure, you are strongly advised to protect your equipment. If you don't, I strongly advise you to physically disconnect your high value items when not in use.
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Gordon, which one are you considering ? Shirley is thinking new wheels this year too and likes the Forester alot.
Not trying to hyjack the thread, maybe we can start another......'new vehicle ponderings' !!
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Dave,
It's a 2000 MB ML430 SUV with a 100K miles.
Perfect condition, no QC issues, and, to me, a silly / stupid price. Tim (Mitt) had a brief chance to ride in it when I was at RMAF this October. My friend (current owner) let me take it for a 1,100 mile test drive. Big mistake!
I would not discourage anyone from considering the Suby Forester. Outstanding vehicle for the money. Have driven several models over the years.
Seems like one in every five vehicles here in Jackson is a Suby. They're everywhere and for very good reasons.
Gordon
It's a 2000 MB ML430 SUV with a 100K miles.
Perfect condition, no QC issues, and, to me, a silly / stupid price. Tim (Mitt) had a brief chance to ride in it when I was at RMAF this October. My friend (current owner) let me take it for a 1,100 mile test drive. Big mistake!
I would not discourage anyone from considering the Suby Forester. Outstanding vehicle for the money. Have driven several models over the years.
Seems like one in every five vehicles here in Jackson is a Suby. They're everywhere and for very good reasons.
Gordon
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