Newbie Questions: Mixing Martin Logan Amp'd and non Amp'd speakers

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Zoomer602

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Hi - home theatre system - Pioneer 60" kuro (elite - latest model).
Have purchased a pair of Vignettes for the rears and working on the fronts and center and sub. Can I run the pre-amp and amp outputs of a Pioneer VSX -1018TXH at the same time? Can I mix powered and unpowered ML speakers. For example, Sources with a Motif or Purity with a Stage?
ESL speakers with Design speakers..etc. So hard to understand what is not only compatible but also what makes the most sense. 90% of these will be used for Blue Ray and 10% will be feeds from an ipod. I want a strong center channel - maybe spring for the new stage. If I do that do I need to get Purity? Am I better moving up to Vista (but they are not powered). Am I better going with all non powered, all powered - etc...
Since I am not invested in a strong amp should I go all powered and if I do so will the Pioneer as a pre-amp be sufficient?

Sigh... Thanks for any expert help... Jon
 
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No One responds...

Why is it that when I post this topic, here or elsewhere I do not get any responses...This forum is all about ML and are my questions that unusual or difficult? Can anyone at least point me somewhere we I can get them answered or let me know why it is not being answered??
 
i think because of your writing style, it's somewhat hard to understand what you're looking for.. or just give it a few more days for people to log in and see your post.

just my thoughts...
 
Jon,

Honestly, when I first read your post, there were just too many questions regarding matters that are pretty subjective and I didn't feel like taking the time to write out a detailed response. But since you didn't get any other responses, here are a couple of thoughts.

First of all, understand that your questions regard home theater applications and the majority of interest on this forum is two-channel music listening. That is probably why you are not getting the response you expected.

You ask about running the preamp and amp outputs of your Pioneer receiver. I would think that you can probably do both at the same time but I don't know without reading up on that model. I suggest you read through your user manual to see if that is possible or you post that question on a forum relating to home theater receivers. Most people on this forum don't use receivers to power their Martin Logan speakers. They use separate pre-amp and amps because of the high-current needs of Martin Logan speakers.

You then ask if you can mix powered and unpowered ML speaker or design-series with ELS-series. The short answer is of course you can. For that matter, you can mix ML speakers with Bose speakers. The question is will you be happy with the sound and that is a completely subjective thing. Some people will be thrilled with it. Others will hate it. Only you can really answer that question for yourself. There are those on this forum who absolutely feel that Martin Logans are not appropriate for home theater applications. There are others who have full Martin Logan five or seven channel setups (me included) and love it.

One option to consider is getting the best center and subwoofer you can afford (say a stage center speaker and a depth or descent subwoofer) and then skimp a little on the main speakers (getting a pair of Sources or a used set of Claritys) and powering it all with your Pioneer Receiver. This would give you the most bang for the buck where it matters for home theater (center channel and sub) but it would suffer a little as far as music listening goes. Ultimately, you would be better off in this case to use your Receiver as a preamp and get a separate amp to power the speakers, for reasons explained below.

Another option is to go all powered across the front, with a pair of Puritys for the mains and the new Feature powered center channel. Then you would just use your Pioneer as a preamp/Processor and disable the amp part of it. Assuming that if you did this you couldn't use the amp to drive the surround speakers, you could get an inexpensive two-channel amp to drive those speakers (such as the outlaw audio 2200 monoblocs). But it may be (and probably is) true that you could use the preamp outputs for the Main L, R, and C channels, and still use the amp outputs to drive the surrounds.

Both of these options are fine. Is one better than the other? Not necessarily. Are there other perfectly acceptable options? Sure. There are many possibilities depending on your budget, your needs, your ultimate goal, and your tastes. The problem with asking which is "better" is that, if you get any responses at all, you will get five different responses telling you five different things which are the "best" way to go. A lot of it really is pretty subjective.

Since you aren't really listening to much music, I would focus on the center channel and subwoofer. Those are the most important speakers in a home theater application. If you don't wish to purchase a quality high-current amp (like a Sunfire - just for one example) I would consider going with powered speakers across the front. Martin Logans generally just don't do very well with receivers. They have a difficult capacitative load that drops down to one ohm of impedance at high frequencies. Most receivers just don't handle this load very well.

If you can afford it, the Stage center channel with a pair of Vista for the front left and right would make an awesome five channel theater system, along with the rears you already have and a good subwoofer. But you would absolutely need to get a better amp to drive them. Whether or not your Pioneer is adequate as a pre/pro at that point will be up to you. Martin Logans do have a bad habit of revealing the limitations of upstream components. When I first bought my Ascents, I powered them with my Yamaha Receiver, which I had been very happy with driving my Definitive Technologies speakers before that. Once the Martin Logans were in the system, the Yamaha had to go and I moved on up the quality chain. They just ruthlessly reveal the limitations of lower quality components.

On a side note, if I went this route (Stage and Vistas), I would purchase a seven channel amp that was either 200 wpc or, preferably, 400 wpc and use the extra two channels to biamp the Vistas. If you went this route, with a Depth or Descent for a subwoofer, you would be amazed at the sound, and would probably end up listening to music on your system a whole lot more than you expect. But you would be blown away by the sound for music or movies. And your wallet would be hurting for a long time.

So, as you can see, it really depends on what you are looking to get, and how much you are willing to spend.
 
I would like to hear a fully powered Martin Logan theater I will bet it sounds good. I could imagine plugging all of my speakers directly into my lexicon how simple.
 
For an "amp-less" solution you could use Puritys for mains and the new powered Feature Center can be used for center and all surrounds. The Purity and Feature each use essentially the same B&O "Ice" amp module that is used in the Summit/Vantage & Spire to power the woofers. This is an excellent amp.
 
thanks..

Thanks to everyone who responded - especially Rich for taking the time to give me a pretty thorough response. My guess is that using powered ML's is probably a good move on my part. Otherwise, I am probably spending more money per channel for Amplification than you do for the built in B&O ice amps. The price difference between powered and unpowered is approximately $500 per speaker. If I choose Purity for the front thats $1000 more than Source and the Stage adds another $500 (versus unpowered). Then I will use my Pioneer amp to drive the two Vignettes I already have that I will use as rear's. I did check and can run pre-amp and amp at the same time. For me all the IPOD, DSP modes, surround, hdmi etc are important . I wonder if the 135 wpc will seem balanced at all with Purity and Stage or if the Vignettes will be out of place being driven by the Pioneer receiver. Using Sources for the rear sounds a bit expensive. I think I will go with the Depthi for the sub (the dynamo is the match for the others but I think the depthi will make a larger difference). How is my thinking? 200 watt per channel matched ice amps and 150 for the center are built in...If not, then is there a 7 channel amplifier I should consider - that I could buy in the $2000 to $2500 range that would make more sense?

Thanks...Jon
 
Amp Choices

If not, then is there a 7 channel amplifier I should consider - that I could buy in the $2000 to $2500 range that would make more sense?
A little less $ for a "decent" 7 channel amp with a good 5 year warranty is the 7 channel emotiva amp @less than $600
Just my .002
Steve
 
Thanks to everyone who responded - especially Rich for taking the time to give me a pretty thorough response.

You are quite welcome.

My guess is that using powered ML's is probably a good move on my part. Otherwise, I am probably spending more money per channel for Amplification than you do for the built in B&O ice amps.

I think that is a logical choice.

If I choose Purity for the front thats $1000 more than Source and the Stage adds another $500 (versus unpowered).

Not the Stage! The Stage is Martin Logan's premier center channel, but it is not powered. I think you mean the Feature, which is Martin Logan's Powered Center Channel, with its own onboard amp like the Purity's.

I wonder if the 135 wpc will seem balanced at all with Purity and Stage or if the Vignettes will be out of place being driven by the Pioneer receiver.

No, I think you will be fine driving the Vignettes with your receiver for the rear channels.

I think I will go with the Depthi for the sub (the dynamo is the match for the others but I think the depthi will make a larger difference).

Again, I think that is a great choice. The depth i is a very capable sub.
 
I will have to say that the more I think about a fully speaker powerd HT the better it sounds. I would go for it
 
hmmm

Yes, Rich, I meant the Feature (my bad). The only problem I can see with my plan is that most of what I am trying to purchase will be via Ebay, Audiogon, craigslist, etc. and the powered items are harder to find (The Feature is too new to even find at all). So paying ML list pricing (or minus 5% which is the maximum they allow an authorized distributor to discount) the price difference between powered and unpowered may be greater than I first figured. (I don't understand how a manufacturer can fix pricing and not get sued for it but heck so many do - Bose, ML, etc but thats another discussion). Anyway, so Steve posts the Emotiva Amp and I go look at the UPA-7 that offers 125/185 watts per channel - but is it going to be any better than my Pioneer Receiver in quality? If so, then using my Pioneer as a pre-amp with all the HT circuits and then an amp like this - is that a logical solution too? Ok guys - I can spend more than $600 but not $6000 on an AMP....so if I was going unpowered (Sources or Better, Stage, etc) what's my range for a 7 channel amp that you guys would feel is acceptable... Something I could find discount online in the $2000 - $3000 range and then if I do this - will my Pioneer hold up as a Pre-Amp? At this moment I am searching for Purity's (last ebay pair sold for $2225 delivered) but in the meantime still considering unpowered to allow me to shop for a better value (so many ML unpowered speakers on the secondary market). Decisions, decisions...I have the advantage of being patient..lol. I have the Vignettes (purchase at 1/2 price new in the box from a midwest store going under) and the Pioneer (new in the box purchased with Best Buy Rewards points (yup $600 worth of them)...LOL
One other question - do I need a 7 channel or will a five channel do everything since the sub is always powered right???
Jon
 
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price fixing or map pricing is great I wish more manufactures would do this. it keeps people such as those on ebay from pimping out there product and running there name and service into the dirt! and taking sales away from legit dealers who offer the support that you need with many of these products.not to say I have never bought from ebay "my lexicon mc-8b for one" but it is just bad for the company. there should never be anything illegal about this it keeps your sales and distribution line in good working order.
 
You are correct that you may find better deals on some of the non-powered speakers simply because there are more of them on the used market. If you go that route, a five channel amp will be fine. You only need seven channels if you want to bi-amp your main left and right speakers. Some Martin Logan speakers have internal amps for the bass (like the vantage and summit) and there is no need to biamp them, but others, like the Vista, Ascent, etc. do not have a built in amp for the woofers. These speakers benefit from biamping. (The Source does not have a built in amp for the woofers either, but I don't believe it is bi-ampable.) All Martin Logan subwoofers have their own amps built in.

At any rate, you would want to purchase a quality, high current amp to drive the speakers. Sunfire amps are renowned for their ability to drive Martin Logan speakers. There are others as well. But this is not an area to skimp on. I recommend at least 200 watts per channel for most solid state amps, and preferably as much as 400 watts per channel. That way, you have plenty of headroom for transients.

As for the price fixing, it is perfectly legal for a company to do so with their own products. Now, if several companies in an industry get together and try to fix prices across the board, that is another story.
 
Update

Just want to say thanks again to all of you. I ended up bidding on a bunch of auctions with the idea that if an amp hit my price I would go that way and if a pair or Purity speakers did I would go that way.

Well I was able to get a pair of Purity that were manufactured in 10/07 (so just over a year old) that arrived today in truly mint condition (9.5/10) for $1900 delivered - so I am starting with these.

However, I really like the sun amp 7400 - conceptually . I bid $2550 on one that sold for $3000 (new) and lost a bid on a demo that I could maybe buy in the $2500 - $2600 range.

At this point I am going to trial the Purity in my kitchen to play my ipod on and if I love it that way - then maybe buy a Sun amp and go for a higher ML speaker for my home theatre. Or buy a second pair for my home theatre. In the meantime I will try to find the sub and center that I need for the home theatre and move forward.

Okay here is my question - maybe its a dumb one and maybe I will find the answer when I do a search. So - what is the best cable to buy to hook up my ipod? There is no question that the sound always appear better from an ipod base rather than the headphone out. I have a wireless ICAST system that allows me to keep an ipod on the base and control it remotely (wirelessly) in my hot tub (tracks, volume, etc.). I do notice the sound is much better when in the cradle then when using the cable.
Is there a high end solution for pairing my IPOD directly to my Purities?
Please let me know as they are sitting there and I want to hook them up...LOL
thanks!
Jon
 

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