ML Summit X tweak for warmer tonal balance?

[autoformer]

Forgive the heresy, but...has anyone tried hacking the Summit X yet to achieve a warmer tonal balance? I notice in the documentation for the new Magnepan 3.7:

"Optional Tweeter or Midrange Attenuation
To attenuate the tweeter or midrange, remove the jumper(s) and install a resistor. The 1 ohm resistor is the standard tweeter and midrange resistor values. Other tweeter and midrange resistor values are available from your Magneplanar dealer. In addition to the tweeter resistor, installing the 1 ohm midrange resistor will also provide a 'warmer' balance."
http://magnepan.com/content/binary/pdf_manuals/manual_37.pdf

People have been messing with their Magnepans for years to alter the sound. Imagine being able to do something like this with the Summit. It would seem to be a fairly simple mod A 200hz adjustment in addition to the 25 and 50hz controls on the back panel would be a worthwhile enhancement for the next version of the Summit.

 

[sleepysurf]

As I recall, some of the lower line ML's included a rear domed tweeter, which could be switched on or off. However, the Summits (and X) midrange and upper freqency responses are already superb (quite linear), so any anomalies are likely due to upstream components or room/placement issues. If anything, I'd rather experiment with different cables (or upstream tube rolling) to achieve a "warmer" response, vs. modding the power board/crossovers. The bass response is much more room dependant, hence the included bass controls.

Will be interesting to see how others feel.

 

[Thai]

Isn't that what the Sunfire amps attempt to do with their Voltage vs. Current hookup? Are there many amps out there that gives you this choice?

 

[autoformer]

Or maybe just stick an EQ in line like in the old days?

As I recall, some of the lower line ML's included a rear domed tweeter, which could be switched on or off. However, the Summits (and X) midrange and upper freqency responses are already superb (quite linear), so any anomalies are likely due to upstream components or room/placement issues. If anything, I'd rather experiment with different cables (or upstream tube rolling) to achieve a "warmer" response, vs. modding the power board/crossovers. The bass response is much more room dependant, hence the included bass controls.

Will be interesting to see how others feel.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi auto,

Given my five years experience with the Summit, the 25 and 50hz settings can have a substantial influence on midrange warmth. You just need to experiment. Also play with distance away from the wall as well as panel azimuth angle. Acoustic treatment will also have a major impact on the speaker's voicing.

From another thread, do I understand correctly that you are possibly planning on using Belden 10ga. speaker wire with your Summits?

If that is the case, you may want to look at that issue very closely since wire will have a definite impact on the sonic signature of the speaker.

Good luck.

GG

 

[Nielsen]

Hi auto,


If that is the case, you may want to look at that issue very closely since wire will have a definite impact on the sonic signature of the speaker.

Good luck.

GG

Then I learned something new today also, but I am not tempted to buy "speaker wire" as the marketing departments call these specially made sonic miracle wires. I have used installation cable, screened solid core for the last 5 years, costs me a dollar per 3 feet of cable.

As you say the 25 and 50 hz setting will have an impact, also the environment and placement of the speaker. The chain of the signal will have an impact, maybe a tube preamplifier will do the trick.
I am very happy the ML doesnt come with a tweakers tool builtin, I want the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, thats why I bought them.
If you want a warmer sounding speaker you shouldnt even buy ML since they are dead neutral and unforgiving. Buy Magnepan then.

Sorry if I sound a bit tense....

 

[Gordon Gray]

Agreed and well said. Not tense. Just a very valid observation.

Maybe auto will get it. If he's not up to the task, he should move on.

GG

 

[timm]

Isn't that what the Sunfire amps attempt to do with their Voltage vs. Current hookup? Are there many amps out there that gives you this choice?

That's exactly what they do. If I recall there were tags on the back of mine with something like 'electrostatic panel' on the source and 'bass' on the voltage taps. In the documentation Carver mentions the use with electrostats.

 

[Neil H]

I have tried changing the resistors on my Maggie 20.1s. I found this useful when the woofer panel was breaking in as it gave a warmer sound.


I found that after a couple of months of breakin that the resistors weren't necessary and I removed them.

 

[autoformer]

Speaker wire

I spent some time today auditioning the Music Wave speaker cable from Transparent in my system. In another post, I related my amazement at how much the Belden changed the sonic character of the Summit for the worse. Well, today I was very pleased to hear a big improvement with the Transparent! Along with moving to the 2 ohm amp taps, this has been another step in the right direction.

Today, we listened to music from a wide variety of genres with no hearing stress. My wife joined me for a few tracks of vocal music and after 15 minutes or so listening with her eyes closed, she said "Ok, now lets hear the Martin Logans". She thought we'd been listening to the Harbeth C7s, which happened to be sitting up front for comparison. That is a very good sign indeed.

I still can't believe that speaker wire makes such an audible difference. All my electrical engineer friends are convinced that the speaker wire biz is pure snake oil, so if I buy the wire I can't tell any of them for fear of some stern lectures. But there is indeed something going on with these products. I mean, you can ACTUALLY HEAR the difference moving from one cable to another.

Speaker cables as tone controls...amazing.

 

[autoformer]

Excerpt from the TAS Review

I just read this review and was surprised to read Dick Olsher's comment, relevant to this thread:

"In any event, I certainly could have used a bit more upper bass output, say +3dB. It would have been really nice to trade the 25Hz control for one at 200Hz. How about it, MartinLogan? In most rooms it’s either the midbass or the upper bass that needs fixing, making 50 and 200Hz controls most relevant."

 

[Bernard]

I still can't believe that speaker wire makes such an audible difference. All my electrical engineer friends are convinced that the speaker wire biz is pure snake oil, so if I buy the wire I can't tell any of them for fear of some stern lectures.

I am an EE, and you won't get a stern lecture from me (okay, we are not friends ). I do believe that speaker wire does make a difference, as I have heard it. I go back to the old statement that if wires measure the same but sound different, then maybe we are measuring the wrong thing.

 

[Victor]

I spent some time today auditioning the Music Wave speaker cable from Transparent in my system.......
I still can't believe that speaker wire makes such an audible difference. All my electrical engineer friends are convinced that the speaker wire biz is pure snake oil, so if I buy the wire I can't tell any of them for fear of some stern lectures. But there is indeed something going on with these products. I mean, you can ACTUALLY HEAR the difference moving from one cable to another.

Speaker cables as tone controls...amazing.

Auto....FWIW, you should try purchasing some heavy gauge Monster Cable or equivalent, "dumb-bell" cross-section, with wide spacer between the cores.

Unless you particularly require 3-5m lengths, cut the cables to minimal length (say, just over 2 metres?). This will confer the advantages of low capacitance, low inductance and low resistance engineered into far more expensive cables but without the financial pain. Terminate with spades using a crimping tool (both can be bought for pennies) and you can be up and running within minutes. The spades can be as cheap or as lavish as you wish.
Jumpers are fashioned from 6" of same wires and spades. Embellishments can take the form of coloured rubber Hellerman sleeves to indicate the "hot" wire.

The surface finish of your average cheap spade terminal means higher resistance than most conductor materials (probably no worse than solder joints) but the contact area helps to offset this so the resistance is trivial.
These cables will most likely see off the challenge from terminated pairs costing many hundreds of $$$ and are (virtually) ideal for both stats and sensitive amplifiers. (Cable comparisons recommended - you may be pleasantly surprised).
I prefer to see cables from the viewpoint of getting out of the way and offering neutrality i.e. to minimise their influence rather than apply them as a synergistic tone control, because that way lies chaos? .....But my opinion means nothing
Happy listening..............Victor.

 

[Victor]

...BTW...Forgot to mention Spades can often be supplied with coloured sleeves fitted so Hellerman sleeves not required....

 

[autoformer]

Thanks Victor. Do you think the Monster cable would be any different from the Belden 10 gauge? Because I tried some of that (no spades, just bare wire ends), and it sounded just awful. Well actually, I'm not sure whether it made the Summits sound awful or was just staying out of the way. The sound was really bright with loads of sibilance in vocals.
http://www.belden.com/techdatas/english/5T00UP.pdf

I happen to have some 14 gauge Monster clear zip cord style wire from around 15 years ago. I'll give that a try and see what happens.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Can I make a bet regarding your MC 14 ga. wire?

GG

 

[autoformer]

Ok, place your bet my friend! Why not send a PM to Victor as to what you expect. I'll report back and Victor can open the envelope.

Can I make a bet regarding your MC 14 ga. wire?

GG

 

[Beachbound]

Forgive the heresy, but...has anyone tried hacking the Summit X yet to achieve a warmer tonal balance? I notice in the documentation for the new Magnepan 3.7:

"Optional Tweeter or Midrange Attenuation
To attenuate the tweeter or midrange, remove the jumper(s) and install a resistor. The 1 ohm resistor is the standard tweeter and midrange resistor values. Other tweeter and midrange resistor values are available from your Magneplanar dealer. In addition to the tweeter resistor, installing the 1 ohm midrange resistor will also provide a 'warmer' balance."
http://magnepan.com/content/binary/pdf_manuals/manual_37.pdf

People have been messing with their Magnepans for years to alter the sound. Imagine being able to do something like this with the Summit. It would seem to be a fairly simple mod A 200hz adjustment in addition to the 25 and 50hz controls on the back panel would be a worthwhile enhancement for the next version of the Summit.

I am finding that what I put in (or on) is exactly what is coming out. I couldn't be happier with mine...I would have to agree with so many of the above posts...I wouldn't alter the sound of the speaker, experiment with cables, amps, etc. Your Logans should just be "passing on" what they are fed!!

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Auto,

My post was somewhat tongue and cheek.

But with all due respect, why would one spend $13K+ on a pair of speakers and use 15 year old, $0.20 per foot speaker wire?

On the positive side, if you don't like the sound, you can always use them as a clothes line.

GG

PS: Regarding performance, I'm confident that the Transparent will wipe the MC.

 

[autoformer]

Why? Because, in theory, it just shouldn't matter so long as R, L and C are within spec. I'm sure you've seen these links, but thought others might find them interesting too:

Roger Russell - McIntosh Director of Acoustic Research and principal speaker designer for 25 years. Total snake oil as far as he's concerned.
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

An AES paper describing a study of amplifier-cable-speaker interactions. The conclusions in this paper give an idea that there is a lot more going on than RLC. It seems to make the case that the key is matching the cable to the components on either end.
http://www.apiguide.net/04actu/04mus...teractions.pdf

Nelson Pass' paper - seems to say snake oil, but concedes that if consumers can hear the difference and it makes them happy to buy exotic wire, who's he to argue?
http://www.passlabs.com/pdfs/articles/spkrcabl.pdf

But with all due respect, why would one spend $13K+ on a pair of speakers and use 15 year old, $0.20 per foot speaker wire?