ML Production moving

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I see a lot more support for the move than I would have imagined on this highly dedicated hobiest forum. For all those spewing the free market Regan era text book rhetoric I offer a dose of reality. In principle we want to believe that a company grows indefinitely as its profits do, focusing on efficiency and marketing to a wider audience. The problem is there is a limited target audience for any good or service. When a company blindly charges in on growth, it risk alienating its loyal following while banking on the idea that nothing will impede progress.

The problem is that in most cases the larger market is already served by someone else. I read a posting referring to the general lack of brand awareness by the public. Are there any other high-end competitors that these people may know (B&W, Focal, Wilson), more than likely (from extensive personal experience) ML has the greatest brand exposure of any Hifi manufacture domestically within its niche (lets say speakers in price 2k to 20k), all accomplished with limited advertising. To expand beyond these boundaries requires significant cost cutting to make unit cost manageable, stretching R&D to cover a greater spectrum of product, and a bump in advertising to increase awareness among non-hobiest consumers. Yet this potential audience already is entrenched with value brands such as klispch, JbL, and the reigning marketing king of the audio arena BOSE, are we supposed to believe that Martin Logan can out BOSE, BOSE.

I give you the case of my former employer Sound Advice. With penetration only in the Florida market they where the largest international B&W and Martin Logan dealers and where regarded as one of the premier custom instillation and Hifi outlets in the united states. Profits where sustainable within its niche market, but management wanted growth and brokered a merger with Tweeter, that saw a more retail focused model to market to a greater audience. This made Best Buy a direct competitor forcing prices down to match the new competition and subsequently many of the entrenched brands cut ties with the outlet. Lower margins meant lower pay and many of the experienced staff (installer and sales) left the company. This was hasted by pay cuts to appease what a publicly owned company thought employee services where worth. With less experienced staff and less exclusive product the premium clientele that drove the company evaporated leaving only low margin retail clients. Despite attempts at increased advertising, volume did not rise and after years of net losses a company that had endured for 30 years vanished. This happens in every industry when individuals with power are driven by greed. Need I remind you that the CEO of JP Morgan chase sat before congress and declared that he thought housing prices would rise forever at accelerated rates.

P.S. I apologize for the numerous typos. I've been on a Mass Effect 2 kick for the last 2 days and the excessive visual stimuli is screwing with my contacts.
 
My concern is that much of what we love about Martin Logan speakers is going to get lost in the process. I have seen it happen with too many companies that have gone through this type of transformation. The individuals that made ML great are going to slowly disappear, one by one, and all that will be left of the old company will be the brand name. The new company will make a greater variety of speakers at all price points and mass-produce the heck out of them. I expect that quality and customer service will both suffer, but who knows? All we can do is wait and watch and see what happens. (And analyze it to death, of course :D)

Realistically... if you stop and think of it.. what RICH says in this last paragraph started the day the Gayle "opted out". The products have changed dramatically since then.. moving towards a more mass market/home theater baseline.

The whole "powered force" woofer thing is a compromise toward that end. Many people never realized the potential of the older gen ML's because they weren't willing to pursue what it took to get them to "sing". ;)
Granted the newer gen panels are in many ways MUCH better, particularly in the span of the sweet spot, dynamics,etc. But I for one would love to see a new class of STATS using new gen panels and passive woofers, with the updated crossover technology they've got going.
Better amps have become much more affordable over the last several years, (excluding the lower end HT stuff of course).

Remember, Shoreline also owns the ANTHEM brand.. so, there is also a potential for blending the electronics manufacturing process from that line into the ML's for the active amps, and crossovers.

I suspect that as has been pointed out, Shoreline is moving to consolidate things under one larger umbrella, and share resources, and skills.. somewhat a la Harman Intl with the Levinson, Revel brands.

Only time will tell what the ultimate goal is.

I just hope this doesn't turn into another Klipsch Energy/Mirage fiasco where they bought the brands and then devastated them. The only thing Klipsch really wanted was the distribution and warehousing facilities... good luck trying to find any REAL Mirage speakers now... :mad:
 
Maybe labor is too expensive in Kansas. My buddy got a used a descent and wanted to exchange the black wood top for a maple top and called ML to get a price. He was shocked when they told him $400, for a small piece of maple with a couple coats of varnish? He had a local cabinet maker make a maple insert for him for $75. I know it's high end and they certainly should charge what the market will bear, but if ML is willing to improve their margins by moving production out of the US, no one should blame the consumer for doing the same.
 
Realistically... if you stop and think of it.. what RICH says in this last paragraph started the day the Gayle "opted out". The products have changed dramatically since then.. moving towards a more mass market/home theater baseline.

This is true. I think all of us realized that with the newer models in the last five years, ML had made some definite changes in the direction they were headed. They worked the ESL line to be smaller and more WAF friendly. And while they improved certain aspects of the sound, like the ability to better integrate the panel and woofer, they also sacrificed certain qualities of sound in order to fit into a smaller form factor. At the same time, they did push the research on the CLX concept and brought it to fruition. But overall, it feels like they have gone toward smaller form factor and more decor-friendly speakers at the expense of the big sound they used to have.

And there has been a definite push the last few years to broaden and diversify the product line, and to move more into the home theater market. I imagine that is ultimately why they decided to move production. They want to greatly increase their ability to mass produce a diversity of lines in this brand, and it would have been too expensive to upgrade the facilities in Kansas to accommodate that increase in production. Much more efficient to move production to some under-utilized Paradigm facility in Canada. Just speculation on my part, of course.
 
M-L's smart move?

This has been a stimulating thread and shows the broad range of opinion generated by a corporate decision to relocate manufacturing facilities. While I do not have a "hot line" into M-L headquarters or Shoreline, I have watched such moves occur in many industries unrelated to audio equipment. Some have worked well, others have not. While we can lament the transfer of jobs to other countries, especially given the current unemployment figures in the US, most audio enthusiasts, including many if not most MartinLoganOwners members, own some equipment made in other countries by non-American factory workers. This did not stop our purchases if the we thought the equipment was worthwhile. It so happens that 75% of my system (#308) is US-made (including my CLXs, Script-is, Stage, and Descent-i's). Would I stop buying M-L speakers, if they were made in Canada and retained the M-L quality that I expect? I doubt it. I have not owned Canadian-made equipment since I bought a pair of Totem Mani-2's in the 1990's. My take on the high-end gear from North of the border is that it can hold its own against most of the US competition, eg, Bryston, Anthem, Paradigm, etc, at the same price points.
For the present, we should hold our collective breaths and hope that this move will work out for a company that has had our loyalty for many years.
 
My concern is that much of what we love about Martin Logan speakers is going to get lost in the process. I have seen it happen with too many companies that have gone through this type of transformation. The individuals that made ML great are going to slowly disappear, one by one, and all that will be left of the old company will be the brand name. The new company will make a greater variety of speakers at all price points and mass-produce the heck out of them. I expect that quality and customer service will both suffer, but who knows? All we can do is wait and watch and see what happens. (And analyze it to death, of course :D)


Rich is correct. It started with Gayle in 2005. Now it be Paul or Jeff and the others. Next it will be Jim. I am not sure who exactly they are cutting, but I was there a couple of days ago and heard that the 12 that are being cut are not moving to Canada.

How can you say that guys that have been supervising and making these speakers for 15 years or more can all be replaced at once. The quality won't be the same at all.

It certainty isn't about saving money with labor. These guys here don't make a fortune, unless you call 50K a fortune.

I am sure it is about consolidation and making a bigger line to make more money. I can tell you the original company was about passion for quality and the tradition of the product. Sure they a had a small following, but the smallness is what made them great.

Bigger is not better. If it was than Wal-mart would be selling top of the line products, and big cities would be crime free and have model governments. Bigger companies give you crappy customer service and only care about the bottom line. I don't know of one that is about great customer service every time.

If you think Shoreview is going to keep that tradition you are fool. Look at their web site for their transactions. They are an investment company. I don't think a company that owns a concrete production, food distributor and a plastic company, knows or cares anything about high end speakers to the point they want to make money.


Unfortunately for us the ML lovers there is not anything we can do about it, short of buying out
 
I share your concerns...

Rich is correct. It started with Gayle in 2005. Now it be Paul or Jeff and the others. Next it will be Jim. I am not sure who exactly they are cutting, but I was there a couple of days ago and heard that the 12 that are being cut are not moving to Canada.

How can you say that guys that have been supervising and making these speakers for 15 years or more can all be replaced at once. The quality won't be the same at all.

It certainty isn't about saving money with labor. These guys here don't make a fortune, unless you call 50K a fortune.

I am sure it is about consolidation and making a bigger line to make more money. I can tell you the original company was about passion for quality and the tradition of the product. Sure they a had a small following, but the smallness is what made them great.

Bigger is not better. If it was than Wal-mart would be selling top of the line products, and big cities would be crime free and have model governments. Bigger companies give you crappy customer service and only care about the bottom line. I don't know of one that is about great customer service every time.

If you think Shoreview is going to keep that tradition you are fool. Look at their web site for their transactions. They are an investment company. I don't think a company that owns a concrete production, food distributor and a plastic company, knows or cares anything about high end speakers to the point they want to make money.


Unfortunately for us the ML lovers there is not anything we can do about it, short of buying out

Since your post is from ML's current headquarters, it may be closer to the truth than some of the previous speculations. If ML's products are not up to the current standards and their customer support goes south, then the writing is truly on the wall for a previously great company. I hope this does not turn out to be the case as ML is certainly not "too big to fail" in the extremely competitive world of high end audio. As a postscript, ML will certainly have to change its website billing as "The Great American Speaker Company" producing "handcrafted electrostatic speakers from the Heartland."
 
If Jim Power leaves or is bought out by Shoreview, they are being short sighted.

The customer service provided by him has been first rate and I have been a personal recipient of his "can do" "will do" follow through.

I am sorry to hear of this decision to move from Kansas. I wish they would just keep esl production in Lawrence.

Sad news from this ml owner.
 
Jim is great guy and I wish they would keep the ESL in Lawrence, because that is where the craftsman are at.

I feel that Shoreline was just buying the name. The thing that the great investors of this county do not realize is what makes a name is not just a good product, but the people behind it that made that name. People like Jim and the others at the shop who are not there just for a paycheck. they are there because they love what they do and are passionate about ESL and audiophile.

Unfortunately Jim is almost 60 as are some of the others there. Gayle was 59 when Soreline tookover. You can't expect them to stay and fight the giants forever.
 
Possibly moving some prodution to Canada has to do with Martin Logan now being sold at Futureshop here in Canada, not sure.

I think they are making many lower end products that will attract your average mom and pop Futureshop customer.Selling ML's at Futureshop definately shows the direction the company is going in.As said, it's the lower end of the line.

Maybe ML's view is that they will be able to sell the hell out of the lower end offerings making them more accessible to the average Joe. You have to keep in mind,consumers that shop at Future Shop would never step foot in a high end audio store to see ML's which would have been required in previous years.
Cheers, Greg
 
If Jim Power leaves or is bought out by Shoreview, they are being short sighted.

The customer service provided by him has been first rate and I have been a personal recipient of his "can do" "will do" follow through.

I am sorry to hear of this decision to move from Kansas. I wish they would just keep esl production in Lawrence.

Sad news from this ml owner.

AMEN FOR THAT! Jim has been SO HELPFUL to ALL of us over the years that I am CERTAIN he is not paid enough! He knows EVERYTHING about every one of the speakers ML has EVER sold! It is AMAZING! Lets hope he and the rest of the Lawrence, KS crew stay with ML...or start another ML beating company we can all know and love!
 
AMEN FOR THAT! Jim has been SO HELPFUL to ALL of us over the years that I am CERTAIN he is not paid enough! He knows EVERYTHING about every one of the speakers ML has EVER sold! It is AMAZING! Lets hope he and the rest of the Lawrence, KS crew stay with ML...or start another ML beating company we can all know and love!

My thoughts exactly!!! And I really like the part about starting another company...

If they lose Jim Power, well, that's pretty well it.

I am surprised -- and very, very disappointed -- that no SD (swingin' dxxx) from Shoreview has had the courage to show up here on the forum to at least tryto explain their most dismaying and disheartening move.:mad:

Sadly, I do not envision purchasing new ML products in the future. Unless, of course, I scarf up a CLX set in the next few weeks. I just cannot imagine that ML will maintain the same high level of product quality and customer service -- characteristics which have made ML the company it is -- going forward. Just - So - Very - Sad...:(
 
What about replacement panels. Wonder if that will even be available. Might be time to order a set for good measure. :rolleyes: Now with international shipping and the exchange rate it might get tricky !
 
I would be very surprised if replacement panels for the legacy speakers weren't phased out. Perhaps they will still offer replacements for the newer models, but even on those I would suspect the quality over the next couple of years.

If you have previous-gen ML that you want to keep for awhile, you may seriously want to consider ordering some replacement panels right now.
 
I would be very surprised if replacement panels for the legacy speakers weren't phased out. Perhaps they will still offer replacements for the newer models, but even on those I would suspect the quality over the next couple of years.

If you have previous-gen ML that you want to keep for awhile, you may seriously want to consider ordering some replacement panels right now.

This is something to seriously consider, when you factor that you can get 15-20 years (maybe more with TLC) from the panels. It's a little steep for replacement panels, but it may very well be worth it if you can keep then going to 20+ years...

Truly sad and disturbing news. I wish things were different.

Erik
 
I would be very surprised if replacement panels for the legacy speakers weren't phased out. Perhaps they will still offer replacements for the newer models, but even on those I would suspect the quality over the next couple of years.

If you have previous-gen ML that you want to keep for awhile, you may seriously want to consider ordering some replacement panels right now.

Sure would be nice if someone at ML/Shoreview would deign to share some info with us, i.e., answer some of the questions and concerns that have been raised here.

Nothing like a healthy dose of communication to calm (or stir) the waters. Right now, all we're getting is the "mushroom management" technique: "Feed'em sh** and keep'em in the dark."
 
I would be very surprised if replacement panels for the legacy speakers weren't phased out. Perhaps they will still offer replacements for the newer models, but even on those I would suspect the quality over the next couple of years.

If you have previous-gen ML that you want to keep for awhile, you may seriously want to consider ordering some replacement panels right now.

Great idea! Wonder what Aeon i / Ascent i / Summit panels go for these days. :eek: Replacement panels do not seem to be listed on their site...
 
I currently own Monolith II's.I will let it be known that if they stop selling replacement panels or parts,I will never buy another product from them.They will lose many customers if they decide to do this.Every pair of used ML speakers would eventually become worthless.Who knows,if they do this maybe someone such as Roger Sanders will produce panels that will be made to fit older models.:eek:
 
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