McIntosh MC275 CLS and Krell

[Bernard]

.................
On another subject: Roger Sanders has generously offered to let me evaluate his ESL speaker cable..........

Ideally I would like to see 3 test suites, with the control being something like Cardas cable (just goading you here, Neil):

1) Sanders' cable on an a pure planar (CLS)
2) On a hybrid with a non internally-powered woofer, Sanders' cable on the top end in a bi-wire configuration
3) On a hybrid with an internally-powered woofer, Sanders' cable alone, and three configurations for the jumpers to the woofer:
a) The stamped metal jumers supplied by ML
b) Jumpers made from Sanders' cable
c) Jumpers made from Cardas cable

Yes, I know that is wishful thinking as you cannot do all that without the requisite speakers, but I'm just thinking out loud.

 

[C.A.P]

How did this turn into a cable discussion from a amp discussion. MAN YOU ARE ROBERT HARLEY'S CLONE. .......... YOU ARE YOUR OWN BIGGEST FAN.

Who made you the Bodhisattva of the Music world ?????????????????????????



Thred was asked Krell VS Mac amps ! Not your useless opinions VS the rest of the world.

MIT means jack sh!t to the rest of us so QUIT QUOTING IT ! MR. Know it all.

M=misunderstood I= intelligence S = stupidity

 

[SundayNiagara]

"I am running MIT cables now but with a poor setup to the speaker terminals."

Change speaker cables.

 

[Bernard]

How did this turn into a cable discussion from a amp discussion. ...........

Mods, would you please split the appropriate posts into a cable thread; I think the discussion on cables is valuable.

 

[nsgarch]

Ideally I would like to see 3 test suites, with the control being something like Cardas cable (just goading you here, Neil):

Coming from you Bernard, it feels more like 'tickled' ;-) As you know, I really like the Purist line, which BTW features a brand new solid conductor speaker cable, the Provecta. For now though, I'm really intrigued with what I understand to be the advantages of low-strand, coaxial speaker cables for stats. If they really are better than my Venustas (a hard-to-beat choice for a control ;-) then I'll sell the Venustas, pocket $600 in change, and have a cable that's purpose-built for electrostats. You must think this odd behavior for a dogmatic old know-it-all! Gosh Bernard, I'll be trying a new SS ESL amp too! I hope I don't get re-classified an 'audio-dilettante'! Wouldn't that mean I'd have to start a magazine?

I don't know any ML hybrid owners here in Tucson, but if any read this, please, PM me. Nevertheless, I will be able to hear Roger's cables driving a pair of Quad 57's and a pair of KLH Model 9's. That should be interesting too:music:

 

[nsgarch]

Moderators:

Couldn't you just add "and speaker cables" to the title of this thread. You can check with Rich 'mosttoysrk' but I don't think he'd mind. . . . . . . . . Rich?

Mods, would you please split the appropriate posts into a cable thread; I think the discussion on cables is valuable.

 

[mosttoysrk]

Couldn't you just add "and speaker cables" to the title of this thread. You can check with Rich 'mosttoysrk' but I don't think he'd mind. . . . . . . . . Rich?

No problem, it does not bother me to change the initial title of the thread.

 

[Bernard]

............... For now though, I'm really intrigued with what I understand to be the advantages of low-strand, coaxial speaker cables for stats. .........

That makes two of us. I wish I could afford to just drop $600 and order a set of Sanders' cables just for trial (trying to think of a witty KFC analogy here, but can't), but can't afford to right now.

As Sanders' cable is coaxial, on the weekend I almost tried some CATV cable on my panels, leaving those nice Cardas cool: ) on the woofers, but did not want to take a chance, not knowing how it would affect the load seen by my ARCs.

 

[nsgarch]

Don't try this at home

Speaker cable use is NOT an appropriate application for CATV coax! It is only 75ohm per foot impedance, which is fine for keeping megahertz signals apart, but not audio frequencies
I'm not saavy enough to say exactly what the consequences could be, but I am savvy enough to say I have a baaad feeling about it

That makes two of us. I wish I could afford to just drop $600 and order a set of Sanders' cables just for trial (trying to think of a witty KFC analogy here, but can't), but can't afford to right now. As Sanders' cable is coaxial, on the weekend I almost tried some CATV cable on my panels, leaving those nice Cardas cool: ) on the woofers, but did not want to take a chance, not knowing how it would affect the load seen by my ARCs.

 

[mosttoysrk]

Maybe I should start a new thread but an update, the Krell KBL is now gone and in it's place is a Mac C2200, what a difference. I am leaning now towards getting another MC275 to power the CLS's.... when does this upgrade urge end?

 

[taylode]

Maybe I should start a new thread but an update, the Krell KBL is now gone and in it's place is a Mac C2200, what a difference. I am leaning now towards getting another MC275 to power the CLS's.... when does this upgrade urge end?

It doesn't! It just switches as you get older to better and more detail resolving hearing aids...

 

[tubevibb]

here tone if you like

http://www.vansevers.com/

 

[Rich]

On another subject: Roger Sanders has generously offered to let me evaluate his ESL speaker cable. He also offered (I didn't ask) to send me his new ESL amplifier to audition. How could I refuse? I'll describe my setup and procedure in detail, so it's easier for others to spot any flaw(s) in my investigative technique. A sloppy reviewer I'm not! (Rigorous experimental technique is something schools like MIT teach until they're second nature, and insist they be followed.) I'll report back when the dust settles.

Hey Neil,

What did you think of the Sanders' ESL amplifier and his speaker cable? I am curious to hear your impressions.

 

[Rich]

On another subject: Roger Sanders has generously offered to let me evaluate his ESL speaker cable. He also offered (I didn't ask) to send me his new ESL amplifier to audition. How could I refuse? I'll describe my setup and procedure in detail, so it's easier for others to spot any flaw(s) in my investigative technique. A sloppy reviewer I'm not! (Rigorous experimental technique is something schools like MIT teach until they're second nature, and insist they be followed.) I'll report back when the dust settles.

Hey Neil,

What did you think of the Sanders' ESL amplifier and his speaker cable? I am curious to hear your impressions.

*sound of crickets chirping*


:wtf:


Let me guess. You are just waiting for Jeff to publish his review so that you can then turn around and slam everything he says. Come on, Neil. Give us your feedback. It's been over three months since you promised this review!

 

[wallacefl]

Let's leave cable Voodoo out of this thread...the original thread was about a Krell product being replaced with a tube product with a less than desired sonic outcome. I have had the CLSz2 for about 6 years and prior to that SL3 and have tried with the help of friends many different amps ; SS and TUBES...feel free to flame but for clarity ie: whats on the cd; no tube amp I have heard including the above MAC translates those "bits" into fact as well as a good SS amp...on the other hand the SS amps are not fun with bad recordings and there is something about the way certain tube pre/amps fluff the soundstage that is magical....I recently got to hear the Summits mated to a passive preamp/Krell amp:music:...I wish they would just skip the CLX and but some of their newer tech into CLS replacement panels.

 

[Bernard]

Let me guess. You are just waiting for Jeff to publish his review so that you can then turn around and slam everything he says. Come on, Neil. Give us your feedback. It's been over three months since you promised this review!

Why stir the pot, Rich ? I am now convinced that if you are not the Devil's Advocate, you are the Devil himself ! :devil:

 

[Rich]

Why stir the pot, Rich ?

I have often asked myself this very question.

I try to hold back . . . :angel:


But then, something just comes over me . . .

:devil::devil::devil:

 

[nsgarch]

Let me guess. You are just waiting for Jeff to publish his review so that you can then turn around and slam everything he says. Come on, Neil. Give us your feedback. It's been over three months since you promised this review!

I thought I had mentioned that I didn't ask for Roger's amp(s) because I was afraid I'd have to buy them (it) which I can't do right now however we (my other stat-owner friends and I) did do a pretty rigorous evaluation of his (Belden) coaxial ESL speaker cables.

Our general concensus after hearing them with three different full range electrostats (CLS, Quad 57, KLH Model 9), was that due to the thinning-out of low-mid frequencies and below, that they would probably be more appropriate for hybrid speakers where the panels crossed over between 150-300Hz. Their most outstanding attribute, we all agreed, was their unique presentation of microdetail which of course contributes to superior soundstage and imaging. My guess (I didn't actually ask him) is that Roger intends for his new (hybrid) speakers to be bi-wired, using his 'regular' cables for the woofer section.

I also wanted to mention, a'propo of the subject of this thread, that I when I received my MC275, I did extensive A-B listening (about two weeks worth) between it and my Levinson 23.5, widely regarded as being right up there with the best SS amps ever made -- I would have a hard time parting with it. But the tube MC275 at roughly 1/4 the power of the SS finally won. The SS amp just didn't produce that "breath of life" midrange that Steve Hoffman always talks about, as being essential above all else for a successful system. Tube amps aren't perfect, to be sure (and neither are SS amps) but my personal experience is that a good tube amp can be "completed" by mating it with a really fine SS preamp (I have a Levinson 26s) whereas I've never been able to achieve the same results with the reverse combination.

 

[Rich]

I thought I had mentioned that I didn't ask for Roger's amp(s) because I was afraid I'd have to buy them (it) which I can't do right now . . .

Bummer. I must have missed that. I do understand your reasoning, though. I was looking forward to hearing your perspective on these fine amps.

Tube amps aren't perfect, to be sure (and neither are SS amps) but my personal experience is that a good tube amp can be "completed" by mating it with a really fine SS preamp (I have a Levinson 26s) whereas I've never been able to achieve the same results with the reverse combination.

Interesting thought. I do think it can work both ways, though. You just have to find the right mixture of components. I feel like I have done that by matching Roger's monobloc amps with the ARC Ref 3 tube preamp.

 

[nsgarch]

I feel like I have done that by matching Roger's monobloc amps with the ARC Ref 3 tube preamp.

Perhaps you have, but it may be that Roger's amp, being purpose-built for stats, is sounding great regardless of the preamp ahead of it -- BTW, weren't you going to audition his preamp as well?