Look out

[MiTT]

If someone can explain why going through 50,100 feet or more of romex in the home is OK, why should the last 3 or 6 ft matter? I'm willing to listen.

Well, another way to look at it is that it is really the first 3 or 6 feet of your components power supply.

We know that premium discrete components within a power supply make a difference. Better grade resistors, capacitors, transformers, even the wire we wind transformers with. This is commonly accepted in military, avionics, medical, datacom etc. type products. These types of components are used because they make a difference in the overal function of the end product. Now the use of such components in an audio application isn't going to make a difference in whether or not we kill the bad guys, or save a life because the stake simply aren't that high, but that does not mean that they don't make a difference. The question is how much do you notice and appreciate that difference and how much are YOU willing to pay for it.

I believe all of these things are cumulitive, or that at least has been my experience of them in my own system over the years. That is to say that over time I continue to improve in my perception and familiarity in how my system sounds, and as I have added these sorts of enhancements I percieve that it has increased my systems overall resolution. That being said, when I do make a change or add an enhancement I believe that both of these factors contribute to my ability (and those of others I might add) to percieve those changes. It's important to note this symbiotic relationship.

Somewhat off topic, but related. When I was working in datacom we used to experiment with different types of transmission cables. When we would test the cables on the bench they would all measure the same. We did have a preference though for one particular cable because it was very flexible and easy to work with. When we were troubleshooting large banks of components (Fiber optic transievers feeding high speed switches), or dealing with certain service and warrantee issues we came to discover that the cables we prefered gave us better overall Cpk's. That is to say, that over time, we saw fewer defective transmissions or dropouts when we analized a larger data set - so much so that some of our Service and Warrantee issues were solved by merely switching to the prefered cables and sending the racks back to the customer. Again, the cables by themselves couldn't have and shouldn't have made a difference when tested on the bench. None the less, when used in the overall system the data (and we collected mounds of it) actually indicated the contrary.

 

[Cherian]

Taking the above logic further and looking inside my preamp (CJ Premier 16LS $6,000.00 new) the first 4 inches is 16 gauge 105 degree C wire. Nothing special here. Interesting that the preamp manufacturer is not using anything that great.

 

[MiTT]

Taking the above logic further and looking inside my preamp (CJ Premier 16LS $6,000.00 new) the first 4 inches is 16 gauge 105 degree C wire. Nothing special here. Interesting that the preamp manufacturer is not using anything that great.

Well, then it may not matter at all just as you suggest. I'd be willing to loan you one of my cables to do some emperical research though, and it sounds like others are offering the same thing. If it doesn't make any difference in your system then all you're out is a little time. If it does none of us may understand why it does, but you might discover even more performance for little or no cost. I'm just advocating validating something for oneself as opposed to knowing that it can't work without validation. I trust your ear well enough based on what I know of you and the upgrades you've made in the past year or so. If you try it and tell me you can't tell any difference I'll accept that based upon your word and integrity.

Even though CJ may not have paid much attention to that bit of wire, other manufacturers do. CJ obviously see's value in some of the other components inside the pre-amp (very nice looking unit by the way).

 

[DonAudio]

Have to agree with Cherian. Physics says no advantage. It would take a lot of current to starve an amplifier of free electons on the supply side of a transformer.

 

[C.A.P]

Well, then it may not matter at all just as you suggest. I'd be willing to loan you one of my cables to do some emperical research though, and it sounds like others are offering the same thing. If it doesn't make any difference in your system then all you're out is a little time. If it does none of us may understand why it does, but you might discover even more performance for little or no cost. I'm just advocating validating something for oneself as opposed to knowing that it can't work without validation. I trust your ear well enough based on what I know of you and the upgrades you've made in the past year or so. If you try it and tell me you can't tell any difference I'll accept that based upon your word and integrity.

Even though CJ may not have paid much attention to that bit of wire, other manufacturers do. CJ obviously see's value in some of the other components inside the pre-amp (very nice looking unit by the way).

OK , I guess Ill chime in my .02........ Mitt CJ did not make a mistake in their wiring. I have opened up many high end amplifiers and CD players. All were done with simple 105 type of wiring. I have had my hands on the inside of a SILVER SEVEN TUBE Amp from Bob Carver and it was simple wiring with some silver in areas. Your Martin Logan's use even more terrible hook ups! The panels to crossover is done with 3 way plastic grommets with set screws. I removed mine and went direct on my Quest. The CLS hook directly to the flat board with no less then CHEAP flat spades. That has been corrected as well as a few other tweaks, Not to be talked about as I imagined that they sounded better. Open up your BAT amps and you will find no less than the same hook up wire. It hurts but its true.

Now I run no PC cords other than stock on my AMP(ITS A BEEFY one though) CD player or speakers. Krell actually stopped making them removable for a while as to prove a point. I am not saying there would not be a change but at what cost, and change for the better? Are you then using them as tone controls?

 

[tonepub]

The next Chicago audio get together is slated for Feb. Jeff I may just take you up on your offer.

Should we power the Amp, MLs, pre amp, source or sub with them? What would give the most impact?

They might be gone by then, but here's another thought for you guys..

I could see if Running Springs would pick up the tab to fly me out there.
I could bring a couple of their power cords and their new Dmitri line conditioner...

I think you guys would dig it and with no pesky sales guy present, you can draw your own conclusions.

If you are interested, I'll see what I can do. The magazine will come out around the 15th of the month, so if it could be towards the beginning of Feb, that would be much better, otherwise I could come out in March.

 

[TrumpetDoug]

Jeff your willingness to be helpful and moderate at times is great to see. You along with many others on this forum is what the spirit of audio/hi-fi is all about.:bowdown: I have always said no harm in trying new things. It wasn't much more than 25 years ago most audio folks were probably not using spikes under their speakers. I remember the first time I heard a difference. Kind-of changed my opinion of how things work.

To all out there that have responded on this thread and may continue to do so, Thank-you, you are helping this Ascent owner make a somewhat informed decision on a purchase.:music:

Keep it coming if you like,
Doug - out

 

[tonepub]

Just talked to Dan Babineau, the designer of all the Running Springs stuff.
We both have family in Milwaukee, so he said that he'd be happy to accompany me to hang out with you guys for the day, demo his stuff and answer any of your technical questions.

In addition to being an oboe player, he does have a masters in electrical engineering and a Ph.D in physics. He's my go to guy whenever I need to know anything about circuit design. Having been a professor for a while too, he's great at explaining this stuff at whatever your level of expertise might be, so I think you guys would get a lot out of having him along.

Let's start planning a date and we'll drop by to see you guys!

 

[Cherian]

Jeff this sounds like a great plan. We can start a new section in the get together section and set up a date. I'm willing to listen and who knows I may become a convert.

 

[MiTT]

OK , I guess Ill chime in my .02........ Mitt CJ did not make a mistake in their wiring. I have opened up many high end amplifiers and CD players. All were done with simple 105 type of wiring. I have had my hands on the inside of a SILVER SEVEN TUBE Amp from Bob Carver and it was simple wiring with some silver in areas. Your Martin Logan's use even more terrible hook ups! The panels to crossover is done with 3 way plastic grommets with set screws. I removed mine and went direct on my Quest. The CLS hook directly to the flat board with no less then CHEAP flat spades. That has been corrected as well as a few other tweaks, Not to be talked about as I imagined that they sounded better. Open up your BAT amps and you will find no less than the same hook up wire. It hurts but its true.

Now I run no PC cords other than stock on my AMP(ITS A BEEFY one though) CD player or speakers. Krell actually stopped making them removable for a while as to prove a point. I am not saying there would not be a change but at what cost, and change for the better? Are you then using them as tone controls?

C.A.P. I never said CJ made a mistake, I said that they "didn't pay much attention to that bit of wire, but other manufacturers do". I didn't say every manufacturer, I said "some". You're incorrect about my BAT gear. The IEC connector on my amp is directly coupled to some large bus rails that the amplifier modules then seat on for each phase. My amp is modular remember and each module has it's own power supply. Think in terms of a computer mother board with card slots plugging into it. On my pre-amp the IEC socket is soldered directly to the power supply board, so they bypass the wire all together. The approach isn't unique to BAT - Levinson, Boulder, Ayre, darTZeal all use similar construction. CJ obviously doesn't believe that anything other than 16Ga, 105C wire is necessary, and I'm not one to question it because they are obviously doing something right if you've ever listened to any of their stuff. That still doesn't alter my viewpoint that an aftermarket power cord won't make a difference, but the only way to know with certainty is to try it and listen.

Beyond that though, all I was really trying to say is that despite the "fact" that power cords CAN NOT make a difference, many people have demonstrated that they can and do. I was volunteering one of my cords in case anyone wanted to experiment with it themselves and draw their own conclusions based upon their own systems, in their own rooms, with their own music and report their observations here.

 

[C.A.P]

I was not clear on my example. (My bad) Not all amps PC is simple 16 gage 105 but most innards that move the power and such are. I know many do have bus bar and cards. (Mine does) I'm not disagreeing with ya one bit. I just thought there are many ways to screw up the power coming in and Martin Logan speakers them selves do a good job at that. Its the nature of manufacturing. Many if not all amplifier manufactures do not recommend a after market cord. It would be a oxymoron to their design and original sound. It then becomes a tone control.

Sounds Like Cherian and the Chicago group may do a FEB get together. (I amy try and be there) . Jeff and a Rep from a PC company volunteered to show up and demo.

As for now I may try a pair of PC for my CLS to see. I will be as open minded as it gets. As I stated It may open up a Veil to a new dimension. I know my simple tweaks did. They just got rid of the JUNK in the way !

As for the Amp PC or CD/Pre I would even be open for that !

 

[Burke]

Jeff this sounds like a great plan. We can start a new section in the get together section and set up a date. I'm willing to listen and who knows I may become a convert.

I am in as well. The only aftermarket cord I have is a 'Magic Power Cord' from Signal cables ($60). Very nice build quality, but I can not say that I heard a difference. Then again I have not tried an A-B swap and tried to listen for it either.

Jeff,
This sounds like a great plan and may be well attended (although Feb in Chicago is cold).

 

[TrumpetDoug]

Get together

Of course as this thread starter I sure hope the happening happens. I would love to be there. Hook the cords up to whatever, I was most interested in the ML's. My CJ has a hard wired cord so no option there.

Doug - out

 

[Bernard]

Please ensure that you document what you hear. I am particularly interested in Cherian's report - there is no one more religious than a convert !

 

[MOON]

I had my stock martin logan powercords plugged into an Audience Adept Response R12 conditioner. I then replaced the stock cords with Foundation Research LC 1'S , powercords with a conditioner built into the cord. It made a huge difference throughout , and I do mean huge difference. Cleaner mid's and high's, better definition and better bass as well.The Foundation Research cords are plugged into the Adetp Response also.