longevity and care questions

[slownlo]

After reading much about these wonderful speakers I've actually grown disheartened about owning them (CLS I's purchased used)!

Accroding to what I've read on this site,....ML's seem plagued with issues related to longevity,... from diaphram dust buildup,... to the "coating" on the diaphram wearing out over time, it seems like buying them used is a major risk no matter how well cared for they are, due to inherent issues with the design...

I did a search but haven't been able to find much about how to care for these wonderful speakers so that they may give a lifetime of use without expensive panel replacements. When dust builds up, can it be rectified by blowing air across the diaphram to remove it... or is it permanent? Can the diaphrams be cleaned? I've read some threads about putting them in the shower to clean them??? (lol)... what is the life expectancy of these speakers? Do you HAVE to replace the ESL panels every 5 years? Audibally/Visually (aside from acute physical damage) How do you tell if the panels need replacing?

I have a 14 year old pair of CLS I's that sound great to my ears, and are physically pristine... but I am not sure if what I am hearing is optimal since I've never heard a brand new pair...

Serenity now! (lol)

:bowdown:

 

[johnwa]

My guess is that you are probably going to get a great deal of feedback here but the good news is that these amazing products are very durable and do not need a lot of unusual care or maintanance to provide " a life time" of enjoyment.

I have 15+ year old panels on two seperate pairs of ML's and they are all still going strong. Yes, I have been thinking about replacing the panels on my Monolith's but at under $1,000 for the pair I consider that a pretty good deal.

The fact is that I don't even have to do that nor do you if you are enjoying the clairty and transparicy of what many claim are the ultimate ML speakers.

There a several threads on maintance but most consist of a periodic vacuming and that is really all the on going maintanance you should have to do. If you live in a smoke free house, do not have them next to a kitchen, or have them sitting in direct sun light all day, then your CLS's should last a very very long time.

Again, I am sure you are going to get some solid tips but if you ever want to sell them over, I am sure they would be snaped up in this forum in a heart beat. Happy listening and enjoy!

 

[HsvToolFool]

Accroding to what I've read on this site,....ML's seem plagued with issues related to longevity,... from diaphram dust buildup,... to the "coating" on the diaphram wearing out over time...

Dust doesn't affect the panel's life-span. I've never heard of the vapor-deposited metallic coating on the mylar panels "wearing out" (or coming off). Could you post a link to threads or web sites which make these assertions?

I just upgraded my 11-year-old SL3s to Summits but it was not due to their age. The Summits costs about three times more and are really in a different league than the SL3. That said, the differences between them are not earth-shakingly profound.

My old pair of SL3 certainly aren't suffering from rolled-off highs, poor imaging, or flabby bass. They're ready for another decade of responsible use. I'll probably sell them soon for around $1500 with a spare pair or Transparent bi-wire cables thrown in to sweeten the deal. You won't find a better price/performance ratio than a used pair of SL3.

...it seems like buying them used is a major risk no matter how well cared for they are, due to inherent issues with the design...

I don't think you'll find any speaker brand which performs exactly like new after 20 years of normal use. You'd still need to replace the cone drivers to restore the factory-spec sound. So the question becomes, would replacing six cone drivers cost less than replacing two large stat-panels and two woofers?

I did a search but haven't been able to find much about how to care for these wonderful speakers so that they may give a lifetime of use without expensive panel replacements.

Every two months or so, I wipe off the dust from all my equipment using a barely damp cloth. This includes the speaker cabinets of course. I then unplug the power to the speakers and allow the static charge to drain overnight.

Most folks around here use a vacuum cleaner to dust the panels. I prefer compressed air and blow the panels clean, but you must be very careful. If I have a spare scuba tank around the house with a few hundred PSI left, I'll use it for an air source because scuba air is extremely dry and clean and the tanks are easier to bring into the house than my oil-less Sears compressor. But a compressor with a filter and dryer on the output is fine. Just be sure you're not spraying oil or water on the panels, and never get too close or aggressive with the air pressure. I just hit each panel with air at an oblique angle from about nine to twelve inches.

I've never actually seen dust coming off the panels or heard a difference after dusting, but I assume the dust is now airborn. So I always cover the speakers immediately after dusting so nothing settles back on them. Once I've vacuumed the room, all the dust has re-settled, and my central heat/air has a chance to filter the house for a few hours, I then uncover the speakers and reconnect the power cable.

I've read some threads about putting them in the shower to clean them??? (lol)...

No. Nuh uh. Don't even. Negatory.

what is the life expectancy of these speakers?

I would expect any high-end speaker to have a life-span of at least 20 years, regardless of driver technology. By then, performance will have degraded enough to warrant restoration.

Do you HAVE to replace the ESL panels every 5 years?

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

How do you tell if the panels need replacing?

If they sound muffled, buzzes, biased to one side, or otherwise misbehaves then I'd say replace them.

I have a 14 year old pair of CLS I's that sound great to my ears, and are physically pristine... but I am not sure if what I am hearing is optimal since I've never heard a brand new pair...

Compare them to new Summits/Vantages/etc. The new speakers will have better bass with a more open and extended high-end, but otherwise the CLS will image equally well and present an amazingly real soundstage. Tonal qualities of voices and instruments will be just as accurate on the old CLS. They shouldn't sounds muffled or tinny.

After switching out my 11-year-old SL3 for Summit, the biggest differences I've heard is the bass quality. The Summit also "disappears" much better than the SL3. The sound is just completely detached from the speaker and seems to have no origin; it's just there in the room. I've had several non-audiophile friends over to hear the upgrade. They were convinced I was playing tricks and accused me of using the center channel speaker until I pointed out that it wasn't even connected.

 

[edwinr]

All speakers age. Some for better, some for worse. Any speaker will reward a careful owner with many years of trouble free service. Before I bought my Martin Logans, I spoke with my longterm dealer (and friend) who advised me that one of the most trouble free brands he stocked was Martin Logan. The return rate was very low and warranty claims far fewer than most other speaker brands. They also held the best resale value when sold used.

Yeah, okay, he was trying to sell me a pair of speakers. But originally I was looking at some of his more expensive brands like Wilson Audio and Avantgarde Audio.

I have to say that my Martin Logans, nearly 18months later, have been faultless. It seems like they improve in sound quality the more I listen to them.

P.S. I've heard 15 year old Martin Logans with original panels that still sound like new...

 

[JonFo]

HvsTool nailed most of the points, so +1 to his post.

My experience with my 15 year old Sequels is that they are still going strong.
For rear channel duties they are amazing for such an old set of speakers. But I'm their one and only owner and have cared for them very well.

I keep thinking about a panel and woofer update for these Sequels, but have been postponing it for three years just because why bother if they still work so well; and that's from the biggest DIY-Mods / tweak-head on the forum

If you do update your >12 year old panels, you will of course notice an improvement, but it will be mostly in the high-end. I found that unless there's a physical problem (like buzzing spars) that mid-range performance is about the same for old vs new. Maybe a few dB better efficiency on the new, but no real change in tonal character in the mid's.

I find the value and longevity, both new and used for ML's to be well above average in the high-end speaker world.

 

[slownlo]

HSV,

Thanks for the line by line rundown! Thats exactly what I wanted to know about these wonderful speakers. I also owned a pair of SL-3's, but I did not enjoy them half as much as I am the CLS's! Your feedback has given me faith enough to sit back and just enjoy the music without "over analyzing" the speakers, and possibly getting caught up in the Placebo Syndrome of methodologies like the "shower tweak" (I'm still holding my stomach)...I think the previous owner took care of the CLS's so chances are they are pretty much as good as they can be,... sans new panels (and some inerface box tweaks)...

Thanks again for your input!

 

[DTB300]

When considering the cost of the speaker versus the cost of replacement panels 10-20+ years down the road is really negligible.

The environment they are in and the care given will dictate the longevity of panels.

Showering the panels. Yep, works, and works very well - I know first hand. But this should only be done as a last ditch effort to save the panels. I did this to my Sequels (bought used), which I also use as Surround in MCH & movies, and it made a significant difference. I also cleaned my electronics with windex and a toothbrush (as instructed by the master support guru, Jim Powers). So cleaning your ML's is a possibility, but a last one in the chain of maintenance.

BTW, my Sequel panels are just about 20 years old and I still get sound from the entire panel. Like JonFo, I do plan on replacing the panels and woofers (next year for me) and then having another 20+ years of enjoyments out of them.

I have also done the Hairdryer fix on my panels to help remove a buzz I was starting to have in a small section on one of the bass panels - worked like a charm.

Monthly vacuuming is a small price to pay for excellent sound and maximum longevity. I do this when I do my monthly dusting of speakers and components.

 

[slownlo]

<<<Showering the panels. Yep, works, and works very well - I know first hand. But this should only be done as a last ditch effort to save the panels. I did this to my Sequels (bought used), which I also use as Surround in MCH & movies, and it made a significant difference.>>>

Ok, so whats the proceedure...step by step? Of course this should only be done as a "last ditch" effort to save the panels...but again: How is it done, step by step? Is there an existing thread in the tweaks section with the proceedure outlined?

 

[Jeff Zaret]

slownlo,
I think Dan (DTB300) did post his procedure for the Sequel II's and I think there is also one on the SL3. They are all basically the same. It is just the taking out of the panel from the enclosure. I would vacuum them real well and both sides. Then wait a few days and do it once more. You should do this about once a month depending on how dusty your environment.

As far a washing, I think this is discretionary on age and how clean your panels are. Do they sound dull? Or do they sound still very well throughout the frequency range? It can not hurt to clean them at all, i.e. remove a lot of the "dots" and if it has never been done at it is at least 10 years then go for it. Understand they will not be like brand new because nothing is like brand new except brand new. You should hear an improvement.

I am getting together the docs for the removal of the CLS panels today.

Jeff