I'm on my way...

[jk319]

I appreciate the input I have received recently here...

So, I put a 20% deposit today on Vantages, Cinema, and Abyss after spending 5 hours at the store! Will not be able to install system for a month due to repairs in living room + guests after that. I've been kind of going nuts, and hopefully this should end soon. Some concerns I have:

1. Am I asking for big time trouble running these with an Onkyo 75w/ch receiver? I know this is much less than ideal, but can I get away with this? Dealer says I could for now... he thinks that the speakers efficient enough, and the Vantages bass is already self-amplified.

2. If and when I do upgrade, I will most likely get "budget" separates. Any opinions between Rotel, NAD, Outlaw, Emotiva, what else am I missing. (This is also HT, can't afford Krell etc).

2. I'd like to eventually get some rears that could match well not just in HT, but perhaps for some multi-channel music formats in my future. Which cost-efficient decision between used Aerius, or a clarity/mosaic/montage/vignette/somethingelse (Money is an issue at this point). Which of these are closest in "voicing" to the Vantage? Cannot wall mount.

Well, thanks again.

 

[eknuds01]

I appreciate the input I have received recently here...

So, I put a 20% deposit today on Vantages, Cinema, and Abyss after spending 5 hours at the store! Will not be able to install system for a month due to repairs in living room + guests after that. I've been kind of going nuts, and hopefully this should end soon. Some concerns I have:

1. Am I asking for big time trouble running these with an Onkyo 75w/ch receiver? I know this is much less than ideal, but can I get away with this? Dealer says I could for now... he thinks that the speakers efficient enough, and the Vantages bass is already self-amplified.

2. If and when I do upgrade, I will most likely get "budget" separates. Any opinions between Rotel, NAD, Outlaw, Emotiva, what else am I missing. (This is also HT, can't afford Krell etc).

2. I'd like to eventually get some rears that could match well not just in HT, but perhaps for some multi-channel music formats in my future. Which cost-efficient decision between used Aerius, or a clarity/mosaic/montage/vignette/somethingelse (Money is an issue at this point). Which of these are closest in "voicing" to the Vantage? Cannot wall mount.

Well, thanks again.

The Onkyo should hold up for the time being. I drive my Aerius i with a Yamaha amp with similar specs. Most would probably tell you to upgrade in the near future. A better preamp/amp combo will run circles around the Onkyo. The thing with the electrostats is that you need an amp that delivers a fair amount of current. It's not necessarily an issue of total wattage. If/when the impedance drops, that's going to tax the onkyo.

As far as 'budget seperates' go, check out audiogon first for some quality used gear. NAD has a rep for delivering lots of bang for the buck. Check out:
http://nadelectronics.com/reviews/The-Absolute-Sound-C162-C272-Review

Other great brands: Krell, Conrad Johnson, Plinius, Rotel, Sunfire, Parasound, Mark Levnison, Classe, Pass Labs...just to name a few. The important thing is to LISTEN before you buy. My advice, and the words of others, is merely an opinion. THere are literally 1000s of pre amp/amp combinations. And when you factor in your room acoustics and desired choice(s) for music and movies, you have many additional factors to consider. Sometimes you can work a deal out with the store where you can take home the amp (say after they close on a saturday) and maybe return it on sunday before they open. Before dropping 2 grand on a new amp, give the thing a nice workout at home. Once you've listened to enough amps, you can search audiogon for deals or just buy the one you like from the store. Listen! Listen! Listen!

Also if you are going to purchase seperates, I suggest buying the same amp over and over. Let's say you wanted to amp the front channel with NAD. Make sure you get 2 of the same NAD amps. This will help resolve gain issues. If you get different amps from different companies, you might need extra equipment to deal with the gain.

A used Aerius would be an ideal speaker for a rear channel. I'd also look at the Script i.

Erik

 

[jk319]

Thanks Erik,

Good input, as usual. I guess I am exhibiting the symptoms of "do-it-all-at-once" syndrome that some of us are prone too. Yes, I'll just run it with the budget Onkyo, and take my time learning more about amplification. It looks like I am cancelling a weekend trip a month from now... equals more money for speakers! I think I may double the subwoofer budget, perhaps to a depth. Or... does a depth outperform two Abyss' or vice versa?

Or, on the other hand I can upgrade the cinema i to the stage. I've tried to scour this forum, and didn't find much. One poster really preferred the latter. My brochure I have says the stage has "XStat" where cinema has gen 2 cls. The latter is the older technology, correct? Which would mean the stage would voice match better? I briefly auditioned both, and I didnt' hear so much difference, however, it was with a cranking 5.1 w/ Summits, Descent, and Scripts running too! I was probably too overwhelmed to distinguish subtleties.

cheers

 

[eknuds01]

Thanks Erik,

Good input, as usual. I guess I am exhibiting the symptoms of "do-it-all-at-once" syndrome that some of us are prone too. Yes, I'll just run it with the budget Onkyo, and take my time learning more about amplification. It looks like I am cancelling a weekend trip a month from now... equals more money for speakers! I think I may double the subwoofer budget, perhaps to a depth. Or... does a depth outperform two Abyss' or vice versa?

Or, on the other hand I can upgrade the cinema i to the stage. I've tried to scour this forum, and didn't find much. One poster really preferred the latter. My brochure I have says the stage has "XStat" where cinema has gen 2 cls. The latter is the older technology, correct? Which would mean the stage would voice match better? I briefly auditioned both, and I didnt' hear so much difference, however, it was with a cranking 5.1 w/ Summits, Descent, and Scripts running too! I was probably too overwhelmed to distinguish subtleties.

cheers

Choice of center speaker is, like many things, a matter of preference. Logan makes terrific center speakers but they are rather expensive and you might need to buy new furniture or purchase a flat panel TV to accomodate that wide speaker.

Again, it depends on your current set up and budget. I sure as hell wouldn't build around a center speaker (that's because I prefer 2 channel audio). However, if you like to watch a lot of movies, than this is indeed an important choice. The problem on your end is auditioning some different center channel speakers with the Logans. That's easier said than done.

Dan (DTB300) has a B&W center with his CLSs and that was a real nice combo. He can elaborate on his choice there.

I listened to the Stage or Cinema i, but I can't remember which. I think it was the Stage and it was awesome, but you might be better off with a smaller, less expensive, center channel and put the extra money into A) better CD player B) better cables C) better amp.

Test lots of things out and be patient. You'll get there...

Erik

 

[eknuds01]

One other thing.

Keep an eye an out, or perhaps organize a 'get together' like DTB300 did for the northerrn VA/DC/Maryland group. I am sure there are lots of ML enthusiasts in Cali.

I promise you, if you can bring your music and listen to some other people's systems, you will learn a TON!

 

[Jeff Zaret]

There are several of us in California. It just depends where you are in California.

Jeff

 

[kcl]

One primary function of our system is home theater, and I did a lot of looking into it as I've evolved the system. If a focus of your system is HT, the center is possibly the most important speaker of the setup, followed by the sub. Probably 70% or more of the sound will come from the center in a 5.1 or 7.1 system. Back in 2002 when I moved to MLs, I got a Cinema center (along with some Ascents and a Descent sub). After a couple of weeks I decided to try the Theater, which was something like 40% more cost. I was really happy with the Cinema and didn't expect much of an impact, but it only took me one evening of HT listening to call and tell them to keep the Cinema. It made that much difference. Just my own experience.

By the way, as Jeft said, there's quite a few of us in California. Let us know where you are and you could probably get some listening time on one of our systems.

 

[David Matz]

Your Onkyo should hold up as long as you don't jam the volume too high. It may get hot, though. I tested my Ascents with an 80 watt/ ch Yamaha, it was fine. You will have a lot to look forward to when you upgrade.

Also, if you take delivery of the equipment earlier, you can burn in some of the speakers, and they will be ready when your guests leave, instead of waiting another week or 2 while the "shrillness" goes away.

Finally, for your electronics, research Bryston if you are on a budget. Their amps and processors have some of the best performance to price ratios in hi fi.

Congratulations on your system!

 

[jk319]

Thanks everybody.

This will be 50/50 HT and music, however, I have this very strong nagging feeling that this will change, hehe. I have never enjoyed multi-ch music yet, which I hope to with this new system, and Id imagine the center is very important for this use as well, right?

I will check out Bryston for sure, thanks.

kcl, that is one serious system. Very much like the one I heard last weekend :rocker: You are my idol. After seeing your CC in front of the tv, I'll just do that too, and not have to worry about replacing or modifying my tv stand.

Well, I read a quote somewhere recently.. There are two typical regrets in purchasing audio. 1) Not buying the best you can afford 2) Not being able to afford what you just bought. Hah, and in between is what? A really, really fine line.... heehee. Now, Im leaning toward upgrading the cc and sub. Big bux, big bux....

oh ya, btw, I am in socal. I appreciate any offers, but I think I might be golden. Davis is far away.... Well, actually, I will be very curious about electronics, but need to wait another month before I can install my soon-to-be-final purchase anyhow. Thanks again all.... great forum...

 

[kcl]

kcl ... After seeing your CC in front of the tv, I'll just do that too, and not have to worry about replacing or modifying my tv stand.

I think you'll be quite happy with it there. A really high quality center speaker, and particularly planers like the Theater and Cinema, don't "draw your attention". Because the projector screen drops down over the front of the TV, the floor was the only choice for us. It turns out we simply didn't notice whether the speaker was on top of the TV or on the floor in front of it.

 

[Pcar928fan]

I think you'll be quite happy with it there. A really high quality center speaker, and particularly planers like the Theater and Cinema, don't "draw your attention". Because the projector screen drops down over the front of the TV, the floor was the only choice for us. It turns out we simply didn't notice whether the speaker was on top of the TV or on the floor in front of it.

ML's can be a little beamy if you are looking for the perfect spot anyway (though even out of the sweet spot they sound so good non-ML folks won't notice) so if you want to create a BIGGER sweet spot you need to get the speaker closer to ear level and flat, not pointing up or down. That is why I chose to put mine on the front of the box that the TV sits on. It gives a bigger sweet spot. Of course with the Sony 70" mounting it on top would put it WAY UP THERE and that would create a really small sweet spot.

YMMV!

 

[jk319]

ML's can be a little beamy if you are looking for the perfect spot anyway (though even out of the sweet spot they sound so good non-ML folks won't notice) so if you want to create a BIGGER sweet spot you need to get the speaker closer to ear level and flat, not pointing up or down. That is why I chose to put mine on the front of the box that the TV sits on. It gives a bigger sweet spot. Of course with the Sony 70" mounting it on top would put it WAY UP THERE and that would create a really small sweet spot.

YMMV!

Thanks kcl and Pcar-

Pcar, how do you like your setup with Rotel gear? I can get some Rotel stuff refurbished, for what could be a good value. Rotel is supposed to be a bit grainier and/or warmer? What I like about their refurbed/B-class stuff is that it still comes with a 5-yr warranty. Other brands like NAD only come with 1-yr if refurbed.

You know, good sweet-spot/dispersion is actually pretty important to me. So your guys' input is indeed very valuable to me. So I've searched for an ideal center stand, and so far have come up with this:

http://www.standsandmounts.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=5161

Looks to have a wider top than most I've found which I think would be pretty important as the ML cc's are pretty wide! Wider would still be better, but haven't found one yet at the right height (14"-17")....

 

[Thai]

You can click on my signature for pics of my rack/stand.The height is ear level. The STAGE is an excellent CC...i would get it over Cinema if you can afford it. Supposedly, the STAGE provides the same (or better) excellent sound as Theater i BUT with the physical size of the Cinema.

 

[Pcar928fan]

The STAGE is an excellent CC...i would get it over Cinema if you can afford it. Supposedly, the STAGE provides the same (or better) excellent sound as Theater i BUT with the physical size of the Cinema.

One of the sales guys at our local ML dealer says the same thing. He replaced his Theater w/ the Stage and LOVES IT! I also replaced his SL3's or Requests with Summit's so he is in the upgrade mode...oh, yea and his Descent w/ a Descent i. He dropped a few bucks, but much less than those of us w/o that connection drop.

As to the Rotel gear. I quite like it. I think for the money it is hard to beat. I get GREAT surround sound, and I use the screen on the 1098 for my security camera monitor. I can't find that with ANY OTHER Pre (except maybe the Parasound C1 Halo, but it does not come in black)... I find it a bit harsh on the highs in my overly bright room, but in a room that is not as bright as mine I think it would be perfect.

Great reasolution, and the sweet spot that my Prodigy generate for 2ch is quite large. I would say that you have a good 5.5' width and 4'+ depth to the sweet spot so several folks can sit in that area and REALLY enjoy a nice 2ch experience...

 

[jk319]

Pcar, I very much appreciate your honest evaluation of your Rotel gear in your personal set-up. Your processor doubles as a security device, what the....

I hit a couple of stores last night. Wanted to better audition the difference between the two centers, but they were severly understaffed at the ML store, so I listed to the Vantages for quite a while again. It's funny how impressions vary a bit, visit to visit. Per usual, ridiculous details, and things I've never heard before from my own cd collection. They did seem to be a bit beamier than before, but it's a small price to pay for such magnificent decay. Anyways, I talked for a while with a different person at the store, who is a huge ML fan, and he thinks that the difference between the centers is very substantial. More so than between different cc's from other brands. He even thinks that Vistas+Stage is a superior combo to that of Vantages+Cinema. I guess I'm kinda sold already. (Curious, you know the cinema's electrostat covers more of the freq range than the stage...)

I continued to pick his brain over amping (and he's looking himself, since he has some Summits in the box, and finds it a crime to run them with his existing receiver). He really enjoyed B&K and Anthem. He said Outlaws sounded very good. (I just might buy them on his rec). He was disappointed with Arcam. Pioneer receivers seem to do fine he says, but that a $4k Yamaha receiver wil go into protect mode at high volume.

At the other store, I went to check out the JL Fathom line for subs. I found a great deal by checking out the avs thread. I just might order this. Otherwise, they had a bunch of Dynaudio's, including some really big and really expensive ones. Anyways, I wasn't really listening intently to the full range, just trying to hear how well the sub could seamlessly match down low. I think I'm sold here as well... I'll keep ya guys posted

 

[Thai]

Whatever sub you get, make sure that you get a servo-controlled sub.

 

[jk319]

Oh darn, I think you are right about the servo controlled sub aren't you. I thought* I was forgoing the JL to afford electronics. Was leaning towards an Outlaw pre/amp combo, where if I added their rather overly large sub, I'd get a nice discount. What to do, what to do...