I went into a mass-market shop today

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amey01

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Wow - I went into a mass-market hi-fi / video shop today and I was shocked. What amazed me most was the absolute utter crap there. I mean, people actually buy this rubbish, and worse - put it in their quality homes next to quality furniture on quality carpet, etc. Go figure?

If someone *gave* me anything from this place I'd scream at them for dumping their rubbish in my house. That's all it is - it should be at the rubbish tip!! What particularly got my attention was these kitsch designed, "try-hard" modern, "try even harder" trendy looking, plastic constructed Samsung and Sony HTIB speakers. Yuk!

Still, I managed to have a quick talk to one of the sales people. I asked about Blu-Ray players since I thought that might be their hot-ticket item of the moment and I could feel the IQ draining from my head immediately. He hadn't even heard of the different BluRay profiles ("aaahhh, duuurrrr, I haven't even heard of that") and then proceeded to tell me that the only thing you really need to consider when choosing a BluRay player is the speed - "speed is really important because it's a 50GB disc".

On those grounds, he proceeded to try and sell me an LG player saying it was way faster than the Pioneer and therefore a better choice.

I am flabbergasted........Snob mode off now.........
 
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You have to understand, for non-hobbyists, those crap HTIB are viewed as expensive luxury items, and compared to the sound from the 5w speakers in their TV's, are a tremendous step up in sound quality, imaging and immersion from what most of them hear.

The market caters to many different segments, and you can spend 'just a little more' to keep getting more and more features. For most of the population, just getting that first 'little bit more' to get them off TV speakers and into HTIB is a giant mental leap. Most that do are happy with what they hear.

For those of us INTO the hobby, with systems far superior, we look and realize the crap they are actually listening to.

But, like all hobbies, people who aren't into it are dumbfounded when they realize how much the elite gear within that hobby costs. It doesn't matter the hobby!

How much do you think a small, 29' sailboat costs? Or to convert a teenager's car into a 'Fast and the Furious' clone? If you aren't into those hobbies, I think you'll be shocked.

I also think, that many people who demo our wonderful systems, who we always say 'Our guests listened to electrostatic speakers for the first time, and came away shocked!' are more likely shocked at what we paid for in their mind a small improvement rather then the earth-shattering sonic revelation we imagine they are hearing.

80/20 rule. That $300 HTIB gets you 80% of the way. The rest of the thousands upon thousands of dollars we spend on our systems just eke out that last 20%.

My favorite quote is from Fabio - someone demoed his home theater and said 'that must have cost $xx!'. Fabio said (I can't remember the exact quote) 'that wouldn't even pay for just the CABLES in this system!

The masses will never understand us.

-Allen
 
You sound like me responding to people that "Bose Bash"!! True though.

Still - I can't imagine owning that crap - just because of the plastic junk that it is - sound quality aside!
 
Occasionally, and I mean just very occasionally, I walk past some cheap all in one system playing away in an electrical store, and think "not too bad - not too bad at all".

Pretty rare, though. Usually it's just boom, boom, boom and pretty veiled and muted sounding... which is just what most people think the doctor ordered. In other words "that'll play nicely and quietly in the corner for dinner parties":)

Face it - a lot of people just are not interested, and will happily listen to pretty much anything. If that wasn't true, they'd never sell cheap-fi midi systems in the volumes they do.

And the salesman? Well, I overhear quite a few convos and am amazed at some of the complete BS these guys spout.
 
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You have to understand, for non-hobbyists, those crap HTIB are viewed as expensive luxury items, and compared to the sound from the 5w speakers in their TV's, are a tremendous step up in sound quality, imaging and immersion from what most of them hear.

Point well made ! For just recently I assembled such a kit for my sis and bro-inlaw an Onkyo HT-55100.....$400 total, it sounds great !

There are times when I TRULLY think we are the real nut cases ! :eek:
 
Remember most people have no idea what a real live string quartet or, a brass section, is supposed to sound like. We don't listen to live unamplified music by in large as a population. I have had people in my house who seemed annoyed by the dynamics and realism of the music. Many folks don't want high fidelity, they just want background noise. :(
 
Remember most people have no idea what a real live string quartet or, a brass section, is supposed to sound like. We don't listen to live unamplified music by in large as a population. I have had people in my house who seemed annoyed by the dynamics and realism of the music. Many folks don't want high fidelity, they just want background noise. :(

even background noise should sound good
 
Point well made ! For just recently I assembled such a kit for my sis and bro-inlaw an Onkyo HT-55100.....$400 total, it sounds great !

There are times when I TRULLY think we are the real nut cases ! :eek:

I just think you get different things from various price points and equipment choices. Sometimes I walk past some cheap stuff, or I'm in my local record store, or sitting in the car, and I think "that really does sound pretty good".

There are just so many variables to consider. And exactly because of that, sometimes they all come together to produce a really pleasing sound, even on cheap systems.

Take my 1962/63 "we've just discovered FM stereo" (or at least managed to implement) tuner. It is the most musical and sonically alluring thing. It really draws you in - naturally. There's no effort involved, no concentration required - it just pumps out a sumptuous sound that beggars belief. Is it accurate? Many confuse accurate for plain downright sh*t sounding. It sounds shite on my expensive gear, therefore it must be accurate, right? There is no accurate - just a rendition through the particular kit you are listening too.

I believe that an experienced listener who knows what he likes and takes the trouble can assemble a truly stunning system from 2nd hand components if he/she makes the effort. And have some money left for other purposes!:)
 
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even background noise should sound good

Its not that it sounds bad. The general public, in my opinion, is perfectly happy with 70hz to about 6khz and with enough compression that nothing jumps out and catches their attention. That gets the vocals some instruments and everything else is just sort of there, kind of. It doesn't force you to listen. Its polite and stays in its own little corner of the room, so to speak.
 
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Its not that it sounds bad. The general public, in my opinion, is perfectly happy with 70hz to about 6khz and with enough compression that nothing jumps out and catches their attention. That gets the vocals some instruments and everything else is just sort of there, kind of. It doesn't force you to listen. Its polite and stays in its own little corner of the room, so to speak.

and I am perfectly happy driving a 10 year old pickup truck you gotta pick your poison in this world
 
and I am perfectly happy driving a 10 year old pickup truck you gotta pick your poison in this world

That's exactly my point. The majority of folks are not interested in high fidelity, and what is pleasing to them is not hifi.
 
Occasionally, and I mean just very occasionally, I walk past some cheap all in one system playing away in an electrical store, and think "not too bad - not too bad at all".

You're all talking sound quality. That wasn't my point- I understand not everyone desires the kind of sound we have. That's why I'm against Bose Bashing :p

My point was the crap that it is. Cheap, moulded plastic made to look like piano gloss and accentuated woofer cones to make you think "big bass bro".

It was wickedly horrid cheap 'n' nasty stuff that I wouldn't want anywhere near my house. What's worse, it IS designed for people that desire some sort of pseudo sound quality because these were theatre systems! Why else would someone put FIVE of these fr1ggin' cheap 'n' ugly things around their nice designer lounge rooms?

That said - good sound quality can be had for very cheap - the Pioneer receiver / JBL sub/sat that I procured for my parents doesn't sound too bad - nor does my secondary system of Onkyo CR-70R / KEF K120.

I just don't understand why people would go out and buy a 2 metre x 1 metre box of cheap plastic when they can get something like the above systems for the same sort of money.
 
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Point well made ! For just recently I assembled such a kit for my sis and bro-inlaw an Onkyo HT-55100.....$400 total, it sounds great !

There are times when I TRULLY think we are the real nut cases ! :eek:


We may be nuts Dave,

But anyone who is not into HiFi sits down to listen to my system, their blown away. Last time my brother in law was over he spent 3 hours in the sweet spot.

I think most of the general public have not really heard a quality system.

Of course many are turned off by the cost and others still think it's to complicated to deal with
 
You gotta remember. most of the people buying these HTIB systems are middle income or below. People have been brainwashed to believe that they NEED surround sound to go with their cheap, made-in-China 50" 720p Plasmas for them to be "worthwhile", and since most of these people are working for wages that puts them just a fraction above the poverty line, they are budgeting $300 max for the sound system.

I worked at Sears for a year last year (while I was taking some classes to prepare for grad school) and believe me, I know this situation from both sides. As a salesman, I was exposed to the seedy underbelly of the consumer electronics industry in a way that took me MONTHS to shake off...

Most of the people in the sales end of this business (at this price point) are high-school grads, have never even HEARD of most of the brands we own, and have NO idea what REALLY good systems sound like. They have grown up on downloaded MP3s, blaring through cheap headphones and over-blown boomy car stereos. They think live music consists of Metallica concerts and dance club DJs. They have no background in electronics (other than to sell them) have no idea what the specifications they are quoting REALLY mean, and think Bose is the pinnacle of consumer audio.

Management pushed you to sell "extended warrantees" (or as they call them at Sears Purchase Agreements) so much that they would rather you sell someone something they don't really want (and will probably return) WITH a PA than sell them EXACTLY what they want without a PA. It's a messed up system. The commission on TVs and HTIBs are between 3 and 5%, but the commissions on PAs are 10%. We had our head Store Manager stand in ur department one morning in a meeting and actually tell us to push PA's to "commercial customers", even though it EXPLICITLY states on the PA paperwork that it wont be honored if the TV is used in a commercial setting. It's a sick, sick system...

I had one guy come into our store to buy a whole system for his new house. He bought two small LCD TVs, a large one (46") and a HTIB rig to go with the big TV. When I showed him the HTIB systems we had, ranging from $199 to $599, he said that she thought $600 for a sound system seemed a little extreme, and asked what I had. When I told him that my center speaker alone cost that much, he looked at me like I was insane, and said he didn't believe that...

I just happened to have a pic of my rig on my iPhone, and I showed it to him. He asked how it sounded. I told him that it made the best thing We sold sound like a boombox. When he asked how much the Sequels cost, I told him. He paused for a moment and, then he said "you're really into this aren't you?". I told him my stereo was not just an appliance, it was a hobby, like some people own boats, or 4-wheelers, or woodworking. Then he started to get it.

I ended up selling him a set of components (Onkyo receiver, Boston speakers, Sony BlueRay) instead of a HTIB.

He called the store a month later and told me he LOVED the way his system sounded, and it sounded WAY better than anything his friends had. He thanked me for helping him, and then asked to talk to my supervisor, so he could send my praises "up the chain"...

The guys I worked with thought I was nuts too. I would go around, adjusting the EQ on all the HTIBs, so that they sounded less like a "contest car" and more like "music". I would mark the "tweeked" positions of the speakers with tape on the floor so that when our tin-eared managers would "straighten up" the gear, I could easily move them back so they sounded good. I would bring my own CDs in to demo the systems, and they included a lot of "real music" with female voices and acoustic instruments.

I sold more sound systems than anyone in our department, and I had only one return in a year, and THAT was from someone who traded up because three days after they bought their system, we put a better one on deep discount...

So the long and short of this is that the types of people who shop at "big-box consumer electronics" stores are mostly cash-strapped middle class folk (or poorer than that), they are NOT hobbiests, or they are older folks who's hearing is shot and they need bigger sound than a TV's built-in speakers allow. They are NOT us. They have no interest in the gear we have, and they do not have either the time, inclination, or funds to invest in the sort of gear we have. But a LOT of them own a boat, or 4-wheelers, or have a big woodshop in their garage, so if you take the time to explain why our stuff isn't insane compared to a HTIB, they can sometimes relate...

When you explain to them that Bose is riding on their reputation based on 20-year old technology, and that their systems are essentially $100 systems in an $800 cardboard box, they don't have as much of a problem looking at "component" systems like Boston, Onkyo, Pioneer, or Klipsch for the same (or often less) money, ESPECIALLY when you demo them side-by-side, with acoustic music.

Not EVERYONE in the "consumer electronics" business is an idiot. But most don't give a flying fig about "quality sound". And the management in most of these situations is comprised entirely of soul-less, amoral, money-grubbing sociopaths who actually REWARD you for doing illegal and unethical things. Believe me, I've been on the inside...
 
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Usually the heart of any matter resides somewhere between both ends of the tipping scale. Are we all crazy for spending thousands of dollars on exotic audio jewelry in what for many is the tireless pursuit of aural happiness? Most non-audiophile muggles would say so. Hell, if you start throwing around topics like resonator treatments, cables, and isolators, even fellow audiophiles may be quick to stamp ‘certified nut’ across your forehead. Ultimately, what constitutes as ‘crazy’ behavior or rationale is very independent in perspective. One thing’s for sure though, to most folks, the thought of investing so much time, money, and effort on a stereo system, if the thought even occurs at all, is quickly regarded as wasteful at best and demented at worst.

You know what? I can’t say I completely disagree with the above synopsis. Though I have no regrets in my decision to pursue audio as a hobby, it can be enlightening to remove the audiophile lens and observe your system or the business as a whole from a layman’s perspective. I’d encourage everyone who is knee deep in this hobby to take a moment and make a good effort to do so. Whenever I do that, I end up scratching my head and wondering when the moment came when I checked my sanity at the door. Since when did a $10,000 system become ‘inexpensive’? Since when did $2,000 8ft speaker cables become acceptable? Hell, you could buy a great laptop for the price of what we consider to be a set of “ultra budget” speakers. You could go on a super nice vacation and gather lifelong memories and experiences for the song of a $4000 “budget” CD-Player. I understand that hi-fi is a business revolving entirely around luxury goods, which inherently are often priced more in line with those who have deeper pockets, but at what point do you draw the line? Ultimately though, it’s up to each individual to define their priorities and subsequently develop their own definition of value. For someone like me, who feels that all of this hi-fi stuff sounds fake anyway, it can be difficult to justify the shelf tags on the standard piece of gear. Sadly, my OCD side will not allow me to settle for anything less than what I can reasonably stretch outta my wallet? Shit, that just makes me all the more crazy!

Oh well. As Austin Powers would say, this gig is “my bag, baby”, and if more people were given a chance to experience how a high end system can radically change the way their music sounds, I’m sure we all wouldn’t be quite as alone in our love (and in some cases, obsession). Yet, it is still worth mentioning that even if you could provide everyone on planet earth with a good high end demo, there would still be a large amount of folks that just won’t ‘get it’. That’s fine. I’ve been in plenty of $100k luxury and sports cars. I never understood what the big fuss was about and never seem to appreciate the experience the way many others do. I don’t give a shit about attaining 11 sec’s in a quarter mile, so I really am not offended if someone comes over, listens to the system, and walks out impressed but otherwise disinterested in pursuing hi-fi afterwards. To each their own. I just hope that more people will be able to experience what a good system can do. Moreover, I wish audiophiles truly passionate on the matter will take the time to assemble a truly affordable (sub $1000 MSRP) system to show people that you don’t have to pay a lot to experience the joy a good stereo system can provide. Since dealers are becoming more scarce, I feel that the weight is shifting more to the shoulders of the audiophile to spread the good word, and to do so responsibly.

On that note, for me, this whole thing becomes worthwhile whenever I sit in front of my system and have a great listening session. Fake though as the sound may be, just getting ‘that’ much closer to the musical ‘experience’ keeps a smile on my face and makes it all worthwhile for me.
 
just do not forget why we are here! its all about the music.
 
Totally agree Fishman.

Here's my perspective on our wonderful hobby.

Assuming people have discretionary cash to spend, each individual decides what their personal priorities are.

For some it's travelling, cars, boats, art, horses or whatever.

When people ask me why I've chosen to invest money into my audio system, I turn the question around and ask them how much time they spend enjoying their personal choice.

Someone who owns a boat may say that they spend 200 hours per year on the water and they love every minute. I typically respond by saying I enjoy my investment in audio anywhere from 10 to 20 hours per week.

Using 15 hours per week as my average, that equates to 750 to 800 hours per year.

Amoritize the investment over that annual period versus someone spending an equal amount of money enjoying their hobby 25% of the total time when compared to my annual hours, it seems to make alot more sense.

I'm sure you all have your personal examples but if you use time spent versus dollars spent, the investment, at least for me, is well worthwhile.

GG
 
Totally agree Fishman.

Here's my perspective on our wonderful hobby.

Assuming people have discretionary cash to spend, each individual decides what their personal priorities are.

For some it's travelling, cars, boats, art, horses or whatever.

When people ask me why I've chosen to invest money into my audio system, I turn the question around and ask them how much time they spend enjoying their personal choice.

Someone who owns a boat may say that they spend 200 hours per year on the water and they love every minute. I typically respond by saying I enjoy my investment in audio anywhere from 10 to 20 hours per week.

Using 15 hours per week as my average, that equates to 750 to 800 hours per year.

Amoritize the investment over that annual period versus someone spending an equal amount of money enjoying their hobby 25% of the total time when compared to my annual hours, it seems to make alot more sense.

I'm sure you all have your personal examples but if you use time spent versus dollars spent, the investment, at least for me, is well worthwhile.

GG

usually I spend 2 hours before work if possible and 2 hours after if possible !
 
Since when did a $10,000 system become ‘inexpensive’? Since when did $2,000 8ft speaker cables become acceptable? Hell, you could buy a great laptop for the price of what we consider to be a set of “ultra budget” speakers. You could go on a super nice vacation and gather lifelong memories and experiences for the song of a $4000 “budget” CD-Player.

For someone like me, who feels that all of this hi-fi stuff sounds fake anyway, it can be difficult to justify the shelf tags on the standard piece of gear. Sadly, my OCD side will not allow me to settle for anything less than what I can reasonably stretch outta my wallet? Shit, that just makes me all the more crazy!

A ten thousand dollar system became modestly/reasonably priced when the cost of the best gear made cost six figures.

25 years ago when a top system would set you back 20k, a modest system was 2-3000 bucks.
 
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