How can I tell if my Depthi is defective?

[schnauzer/lover]

Sorry I ask too many questions, but 2K is alot of money to me for a product that may not be running on all eight. I have a Super CubeII, "Definitive", and just got the depthi, when I compare the two, Supercube seems to really rock more then the Depthi, yet the depthi is twice the size of the cubeII. Example I was playing a CD Gene Ammons, "Greatest Hits Vol 1 The sixties", and the bass responce in that CD is not that great so I have to turn the level on the Depth to eight to make sure it was working, but with the superCube it homed in on what bass there was at fifty precent. But then I played RSVP, "rendezvous, if you please" which has heavy bass and the Depthi, really came alive, mean while my supercube was ready to explode. So is the Depthi a more subtle or muted sub-wooferor should I say matured as compared to the loud kid on the block the "supercube kid". BTW the Supercube goes for almost 1K. Specialy thanks to JonFo, and Fountain with my last problem!

 

[C.A.P]

Comparing subs with the volume control is not good. The Depth will move air. BIG boom is not always good bass. The phase control and the placement has everything to do with how a sub performs. Just because the 1 sub works in one place does not mean the Depth will work there too. The Depth has 3 drivers interacting with the room. Try moving it around. Better yet do the Sub woofer crawl. Put your depth at your listening position and then crawl the room and listen for the BEST bass. (not necessarily the boomy-est). Bass if done right should be invisible to the ear . Not locatable., The best way is a test disc and a SPL meter .

 

[DTB300]

I have heard the Def Tech Reference and the Depth, and IMO, the Depth provided a more true bass reproduction, where the Def Tech was boomy.

Better bass reproduction can be confused with less bass.

 

[FOUNTAIN]

Sorry I ask too many questions, but 2K is alot of money to me for a product that may not be running on all eight. I have a Super CubeII, "Definitive", and just got the depthi, when I compare the two, Supercube seems to really rock more then the Depthi, yet the depthi is twice the size of the cubeII. Example I was playing a CD Gene Ammons, "Greatest Hits Vol 1 The sixties", and the bass responce in that CD is not that great so I have to turn the level on the Depth to eight to make sure it was working, but with the superCube it homed in on what bass there was at fifty precent. But then I played RSVP, "rendezvous, if you please" which has heavy bass and the Depthi, really came alive, mean while my supercube was ready to explode. So is the Depthi a more subtle or muted sub-wooferor should I say matured as compared to the loud kid on the block the "supercube kid". BTW the Supercube goes for almost 1K. Specialy thanks to JonFo, and Fountain with my last problem!

I would definitely try what C.A.P. suggested. Bass peak output on a certain frequency is not a good way to measure the quality of a subwoofer's bass. Placement is very crucial to what kind of bass you will get as well as quantity/quality. But before you move it, I would suggest you flip the phase switch on the back of the sub and see if this helps the matter. Maybe you have already done this, but if you haven't you may be surprised at what a wrong setting can do to the overall bass output. When I first setup my sub, it lacked alot of the impact that I had hoped for. After a few minutes of testing it with different material I flipped the phase switch and all of a sudden the sub came alive. Keep in mind though that even if this helps the matter, the sub crawl method still would be advised so you can best place the depthi in its best possible posistion with the cleanest overall bass. Hope this helps,

Glen

 

[schnauzer/lover]

That phase switch on the back on mine it says master power, so could be the on off. I was reviewing music and I like the one on E.Power Biggs, heavy Organ musician. So I purchased a CD call the Four great Toccatas and Fugues, played on the Antiphonal Organs of the Cathedral of Frieburg. Now I said to myself this baby should really bring out the lows(bring the house down)!! Now the difference I see between the Depth and the SuperC is the Depth is like a package within a package while the SuperCube is really all exposed. So when you put your hand on the Depth while paying it radiates no vibrations. So listening to this enormous organ playing the SuperC would vibrate and oscillate the whole room so to speak, but the depth you can hear the lows, but holds the vibration within, thus subduing the over-all impact the great Organs are producing, is this the way it was intended?? I guess this may be a case just the way you like your steak.

 

[VanDaRo]

I own a Depth and can tell you that it can move a whole lotta air. If it needs to be turned up to 8 in order to shake things up, something isn't right. Set your phase to 0 or 180, volume and 25Hz control to 5 and the sub crossover to ~40Hz and the high pass to off. -- That's a good starting point. It should slam pretty good or even sound excessive at those points. BTW, my volume knob is set at 3 and no one complains about lack of bass definition in my listening room.

Remember to keep it out of corners and away from wall by at least 6 inches.

~VDR

 

[Nielsen]

Sorry, but if you want a subwoofer that rattles through its cabinet feel free and sell the Depth.
A true subwoofer will, just like a good speaker, have a very rigid enclosure, the more solid the better, except maybe for Audio Note speakers where the front baffle is designed to "play along" just like a Stradivarius violin.
A subwoofer that is "musical" is extremely difficult to manufacture, it takes a lot of trial and error to get right.
They do come in different shapes though, targeted for different types of buyers, there are boombox types that hardly can be called SUBwoofers, there are hard hitting Cerwin Vega types which are not SUBwoofers either, there are types where they think everything can be solved with a digital amp and room correction, there are home theater types like SVS and there are serious music subwoofers nobody hardly notice in the room, they are just impressed how low your main speakers can go because they dont see a subwoofer.
I like the latter, and this breed include for instance the former REL ST series, Strata, Storm, Stentor, Stadium etc., and Martin Logans upper class. There are more but we move on.
The easiest way to place a subwoofer is to put it in your listening position, play a good bass tune on repeat and crawl around in the room, where you hear the strongest bass is where the subwoofer should be placed.
The Phase switch, which you say is an on/off switch is puzzling. On the Phase it says -180/0 probably and you can switch it to either position.
Read the manual, and remember, a subwoofer is really not supposed to be "heard", except for in a home theater setting where you want earthquake movies at a "realistic" level. A boombox is no good at music....

 

[roberto]

Sorry, but if you want a subwoofer that rattles through its cabinet feel free and sell the Depth.
A true subwoofer will, just like a good speaker, have a very rigid enclosure, the more solid the better, except maybe for Audio Note speakers where the front baffle is designed to "play along" just like a Stradivarius violin.
A subwoofer that is "musical" is extremely difficult to manufacture, it takes a lot of trial and error to get right.
They do come in different shapes though, targeted for different types of buyers, there are boombox types that hardly can be called SUBwoofers, there are hard hitting Cerwin Vega types which are not SUBwoofers either, there are types where they think everything can be solved with a digital amp and room correction, there are home theater types like SVS and there are serious music subwoofers nobody hardly notice in the room, they are just impressed how low your main speakers can go because they dont see a subwoofer.
I like the latter, and this breed include for instance the former REL ST series, Strata, Storm, Stentor, Stadium etc., and Martin Logans upper class. There are more but we move on.
The easiest way to place a subwoofer is to put it in your listening position, play a good bass tune on repeat and crawl around in the room, where you hear the strongest bass is where the subwoofer should be placed.
The Phase switch, which you say is an on/off switch is puzzling. On the Phase it says -180/0 probably and you can switch it to either position.
Read the manual, and remember, a subwoofer is really not supposed to be "heard", except for in a home theater setting where you want earthquake movies at a "realistic" level. A boombox is no good at music....

Agreed with Nielsen...just do this...put a dime on its edge at the top of the Depth i and play organ music. The coin will remain steady. Also put a glass of water on top of the cabinet, and you play music. Do not try this with the other sub, or you will get the water spilled all over the place...in other words, no cabinet resonance is present at the Depth i. Only good bass! Happy listening,
Roberto.musi

 

[schnauzer/lover]

All good information! I am just starting to feel that my Depth may have problems and should be looked at. I had to buy my ML out of state and the guy just came over helped set them up got his money and is gone. Thank God, the Spires are working like they should. If I turned my depth to 3 level even with a good bass sound, you would not be able to distinguish the sub from the Spire's bass. I did notice that the box the sub came in looked like it had been opened more then once, bad sign! Anyways I am going to get agood friend from the local sound pro to listen to the depth and tell me if he feels it is under powered. He sells the Paradigm, and has there 3K signature servo. Will let you know how it turns out! Will try those setting right now and see if that makes a difference. Thanks!!

 

[Luke]

A quick way to find out is to buy a SPL meter and play the test tone. I had exact same issue as yours. After I switched the phase to 270, wow it's a huge difference.

 

[preston]

my 2c

Based on my experience, I would not assume that your sub has a problem, yet, as placement can have a huge impact on sound.

Testing with a SPL meter is a great idea. In a similar vein, I would strongly recommend that you download the excellent Room EQ Wizard (REW) software available for free at hometheatershack.com. REW provides some interesting frequency response and 3D waterfall charts and has a great subwoofer guru discussion group that can help you troubleshoot any sub or placement issues.

You do NOT need to be technically inclined to use REW. I found REW (and the related discussion group) to be incredibly helpful for optimizing my subwoofer. I had your same problems after buying a Descent - it sounded TERRIBLE until I got the placement, equalization, phase, volume and integration with mains sorted out; I am still tweaking the system but Descent now sounds TERRIFIC.

Even moving the sub a few centimeters makes a difference; your room has a huge impact on sub performance, and you might be experiencing several large voids or peaks which can be partially or completely compensated for by repositioning or equalization.

Have you tried comparing the response of the Depth and your other sub, placing the units in virtually the same spot? After all that moving, it will be tough to remember how they sound respectively but that would be a good start. REW plots out the actual differences and the REW forum can help you figure out any issues.

As eloquently noted below, good sub performance seamlessly melts into your mains; it should not be localizable, ever. Setting up a sub to get that level of integration is tough and takes time and patience. The sub manufactures should do a better job of informing their customers about the real challenges of set up, but I think those warnings would scare off everyone. Martin Logan makes some great subs...good luck!

 

[Reverb2009]

Sorry I ask too many questions, but 2K is alot of money to me for a product that may not be running on all eight. I have a Super CubeII, "Definitive", and just got the depthi, when I compare the two, Supercube seems to really rock more then the Depthi, yet the depthi is twice the size of the cubeII. Example I was playing a CD Gene Ammons, "Greatest Hits Vol 1 The sixties", and the bass responce in that CD is not that great so I have to turn the level on the Depth to eight to make sure it was working, but with the superCube it homed in on what bass there was at fifty precent. But then I played RSVP, "rendezvous, if you please" which has heavy bass and the Depthi, really came alive, mean while my supercube was ready to explode. So is the Depthi a more subtle or muted sub-wooferor should I say matured as compared to the loud kid on the block the "supercube kid". BTW the Supercube goes for almost 1K. Specialy thanks to JonFo, and Fountain with my last problem!

How long have you had the Depth? How much play time is on it?

All Martin Logan subs will be lacking in bass when you first get them, but after 20 to 30 hours of use the bass will develop and open up. I kept hearing changes in my Descent till about 130+ hours of use, at first I had to turn the volume up to hear it but as it broke in it kept getting louder and louder.

Good luck

 

[schnauzer/lover]

just saw your comments, I will look into REW, thanks! Yes the Sub is brand new, I do not think I put twenty hours on it quite yet, but must be getting close. Actually I would not even be questioning if the Depthi is working properly if I did not own the SuperCubeII. It has only one 8" polymer subwoofer coupled to two 8" infrasonic radiators. I am using it with my surround sound and want the depthi for 2.1 with my Spires. It really has nice impact to change from one presentation to the other, the Spires sound so good when I switch to them after listening to the Definitives, that I will never get over them! I love it! The super cubes seem to put out more energy, it may be even too over powering to play with the Spires, which was not my intention anyways. When playing either sub, if you could not see them you would never be able to point to where they are located, so that may not be an issue why the Depthi is low on out put volume, understand I do not plan to use it in a high level just want to be sure it is OK. It does sound much smoother then the SuperC, at the level I will be using them.

 

[Diamonds]

Take back the Depth and get a JL Audio Fathom F112. It would knock you socks off.

 

[schnauzer/lover]

I think I may have over looked the difference between the two subs, the depthi has only 350 amp, while the Supercube has "1,250" watts :eekthats why the thunderous sound when playing those huge organ passages from the supercube and not from the Depthi.

 

[Reverb2009]

just saw your comments, I will look into REW, thanks! Yes the Sub is brand new, I do not think I put twenty hours on it quite yet, but must be getting close. Actually I would not even be questioning if the Depthi is working properly if I did not own the SuperCubeII. It has only one 8" polymer subwoofer coupled to two 8" infrasonic radiators. I am using it with my surround sound and want the depthi for 2.1 with my Spires. It really has nice impact to change from one presentation to the other, the Spires sound so good when I switch to them after listening to the Definitives, that I will never get over them! I love it! The super cubes seem to put out more energy, it may be even too over powering to play with the Spires, which was not my intention anyways. When playing either sub, if you could not see them you would never be able to point to where they are located, so that may not be an issue why the Depthi is low on out put volume, understand I do not plan to use it in a high level just want to be sure it is OK. It does sound much smoother then the SuperC, at the level I will be using them.

Sounds normal to me.

I think you just need to let the Depth brake in more and you will be knocking the paintings off the wall in no time. :rocker:

My suggestion would be to put in a good bass heavy CD and set your player to repeat while your at work. That should brake it in, in no time.

I think I may have over looked the difference between the two subs, the depthi has only 350 amp, while the Supercube has "1,250" watts :eekthats why the thunderous sound when playing those huge organ passages from the supercube and not from the Depthi.

The Depth i is rated at 300 watts, 900 watts peak performance.

 

[schnauzer/lover]

Check again, the Grottoi has the 300 watt 900(peak). This is what my guru at Sound Pro here explained it to me, often on higher end subs they tend to get away from the thunderous vibration and rather give out the pure tone with out the room shaking vibrations, That is not such a bad deal for me, since I like to listen to alot of smooth jazz,new age etc. But when I listen to my pipe organs and polka type music I have the Supercub, so I got both worlds. Thanks for everyones input. This site impresses me for questions related to upper end knowlege!! just look at some of the setups and you can understand why!lol:music:

 

[Reverb2009]

OK, I checked again.


As per the MartinLogan.com web site.

Grotto i

Frequency Response:
22–120 Hz ±3dB; Anechoic through LFE effects input
Low Pass Filter Frequencies:
30, 35, 45, 55, 65, 80Hz
High Pass Filter Frequency:
70Hz
Phase:
0°, 90°, 180°, 270°
25Hz Level Control:
±10 dB
Woofer Type:
10" (25.4cm) high excursion, aluminum cone with extended throw drive assembly, sealed non-resonant asymmetrical chamber format
Amplifier:
300W (at less than 0.5% THD)
900W (peak)
Inputs:
Left/Right RCA Line Level, RCA LFE, Speaker Level
Outputs:
RCA Sub Out (all inputs summed), RCA Right/Left (with High Pass Filter)
Input Impedance:
20,000 Ohms
Power Draw:
Max: 250 Watts
Idle: 15 Watts
Standby: 10 Watts
Weight:
51 lbs. each (23.2 kg)
Dimensions (HxWxD):
18.6" × 15.2" × 13.8" (47.3 × 38.6 × 35 cm)


Depth i

Frequency Response:
20–120 Hz ±3dB; Anechoic through LFE effects input
Low Pass Filter Frequencies:
30, 35, 45, 55, 65, 80Hz
High Pass Filter Frequencies:
Bypass, 40Hz, 70Hz
Phase:
0°, 90°, 180°, 270°
25Hz Level Control:
±10 dB
Woofer Type:
Three 8" (20.3cm) high excursion, aluminum cone with extended throw drive assembly, sealed non-resonant asymmetrical chamber format
Amplifier:
350W (at less than 0.5% THD)
900W (peak)
Inputs:
Left/Right RCA Line Level, RCA LFE, Speaker Level
Outputs:
RCA Sub Out (all inputs summed), RCA Right/Left (with High Pass Filter)
Input Impedance:
20,000 Ohms
Power Draw:
Max: 300 Watts
Idle: 15 Watts
Standby: 10 Watts
Weight:
70 lbs. each (31.8 kg)
Dimensions (HxWxD):
17.9" × 17.1" × 16.5" (45.4 × 43.5 × 41.8 cm)


Guess I was wrong, it was 350 watts 900 peak, not 300 watts 900 peak.

 

[VanDaRo]

Unless you have an exceedingly large or dead room, your Depth should produce everything from the most subtle bass tones to "bang your head" gut-wrenching ones. My room is 18'x20' and fairly dead, yet one little itty-bitty Depth can easily overload it.

My thinking here is this:
1) You're looking for a different kind of bass tone or a lot more power. In which case, the Decent should liquefy your bone marrow a bit better.

2) Room or speaker placement is AFU.
3) Subwoofer is AFU.

In that order.

Please post pics/drawing/computer-generated representation of the room and a list of associated equipment. This will greatly help.

On closing, I cannot imagine someone not being happy with a Martin Logan sub -- They are among the best in the business. So please don't give up just yet !!

~VDR