Harshness in music with Vantages

[Maniax]

Hi, I have a very frustrating problem on my hands.
I own a pair of Vantages, which are driven by the Sanders Esl pre-amp and amplifier(stereo, 360w into 8ohm, 600w into 4 ohm)

I notice for piano recordings and female vocals especially, during loud passages the high frequency information seems to become harsher and start to break up, instead of being smooth. Is this audible clipping distortion, or are my speakers being over driven?

The volume is being set at loud, but not ear-piercingly loud and definitely not loud levels, so I find this quite unacceptable to hear distortion at these levels. I have exchanged the cd player source, the pre-amp, the amp, and even used the Sanders monoblocks(800w into 8ohm) but the distortion still remains.

I am running out of ideas on what's causing the distortion. I really hope its not the speaker's limitations to play at that volume because I use them in a moderately sized hall and the levels I hear the distortion is just about right where I can hear the microdynamics.

Thanks in advance!

 

[avtroll]

I dont think it is the speakers, I use vista's powered by mac 207 (200w x 7) I rail the hell out of my system and it doesnt distort, but im also using AQ solid silver speaker wire and interconnects. Im not sure of the sonic signature of the equipment you have, that can be part of it as well.

 

[roberto]

Hi, I have a very frustrating problem on my hands.
I own a pair of Vantages, which are driven by the Sanders Esl pre-amp and amplifier(stereo, 360w into 8ohm, 600w into 4 ohm)

I notice for piano recordings and female vocals especially, during loud passages the high frequency information seems to become harsher and start to break up, instead of being smooth. Is this audible clipping distortion, or are my speakers being over driven?

The volume is being set at loud, but not ear-piercingly loud and definitely not loud levels, so I find this quite unacceptable to hear distortion at these levels. I have exchanged the cd player source, the pre-amp, the amp, and even used the Sanders monoblocks(800w into 8ohm) but the distortion still remains.

I am running out of ideas on what's causing the distortion. I really hope its not the speaker's limitations to play at that volume because I use them in a moderately sized hall and the levels I hear the distortion is just about right where I can hear the microdynamics.

Thanks in advance!

Hola...usually your problem is from a different source than the speakers. They do play very loud and you do not need to many watts to drive them clean. Are both speakers producing the problem at the same time? By any chance, do you have another power amp on hand? Do not get me wrong, I just want to make sure from where it is coming the problem. Sanders mono blocks are super powerful. Bring the level a little bit down, and listen if you have that distortion from a more moderate level. Hope this can help, happy listening,
Roberto.

 

[Beakman]

Hmmmm, I have noticed the same since upgrading amongst other things, to an Innersound 300.
Yup, the midrange can be glaring, even uncomfortably so. What I believe this to be may be the amp allowing the Vantages to reach peak effenciency in their design paramaters as well as with the rest of other upgraded components, and 'design parameters" in the recordings.
Some examples with some music I've been listening to:

Emerson, Lake & Palmer, Emerson, Lake & Palmer, Trilogy
Increased stage expansion, finer detail, moderate midrange harshness

The Beatles, The Beatles (White Album)
Increased stage expansion, finer detail, extreme midrange harshness

Jimi Hendrix, Electric ladyland
decreased stage expansion, finer detail, moderate midrange harshness

Spirit, Time Circle (collection)
Increased stage expansion, finer detail, no midrange harshness

Ivy, Pretty much the entire catalog
Extremely decreased stage expansion (or extreme stage compression), same or less detail, extreme midrange harshness

Various Classical, Mostly symphonies and organ
Not much stage difference, finer detail, occasional midrange harshness, much improved mid to low bass resolution.

One thing I've also noticed, to coincide with all the above, is that all the CD recordings that I've listened to since the upgrade is that their different apparent recording characteristics are all the more distinct from each other. In other words, whatever settings and adjustments that generally worked well with the bulk of my CD's on my old equipment now have become as distinct as the individual CD itself.
Though extremely general and preliminary observations, I do think there is a trend here, that of limits of source (recording, CD player?) and maybe just a wee bit hotness of the speaker itself. The aforementioned Ivy sounds great on lesser equipment and carries itself well on boomboxes and car stereos, as per subject matter. The jazz oriented material and classical behave oppositely, excepting perceived speaker anomolies. Only time and money will tell if I'm on the right track, both of which I'm lacking at the moment.

 

[Neil H]

I had a similar problem with my now well broken in Summits. I started a thread on this a few weeks ago but haven't posted an update.

My problem was a harshness on some recordings, particularly noticeable on the male vocals and guitar on a Kane and Welch CD of which I am very familiar. I wasn't sure it was high frequency glare or a bass problem.

I am planning on adding some room treatment soon but so far I have done the following and it really worked.

1. Placed some foam mattresses and some cushions behind the speakers (as I said I am soon to invest in some traps)

2. Adjusted the Summit panels using the long spikes so that the panel is exactly vertical with no back tilt

3. Moved my seat further from the back wall so that it is about 2 metres from the wall.

4. Turned down the 25hz setting and turned up the 50hz setting after plotting the low frequency room response.

The combination of all of the above has really fixed the problem. I haven't yet analysed it further but I think the biggest factors were the panel tilt and the seat position. The bass settings improved the sound but I don't think it affected the resonance I was hearing.

I know you have different speakers than mine and so not all of the above may be relevant. However, I strongly suggest playing around with tilt, seat position and also distance of the speakers from the back wall.

Hope this helps

 

[Maniax]

Thank you for all your quick replies.
What I'm experiencing does seem apart from harshness, some kind of distortion.
The piano sounds like a rougher version of a piano, and a female singer's voice sounds like she's got a sore throat(croaking) or something. It's not brightness, but just an unnatural sound.
At lower levels I can't hear them, either because there is no distortion or maybe the flaws in the CD just weren't heard.
Yes I agree with Beakman, with this set up, individual CDs have "incompatibilities" with the system where there is no one configuration for all CDs. A bit annoying but maybe this is true transparency haha, where all flaws in recording, mastering etc are revealed.

Anyone else have owned Innersound or Sanders amplifiers and would care to comment?

Thanks!

 

[FISH_MAN]

what is the original source?

I hope you are not using a dvd player for cd's for a revieling amp and pre pro will make your music sound harsh.the thing that originally drove me to the vantages where the female vocals they could produce such a smoooooth sound . what is loud? db at listening distance.

 

[Maniax]

I'm using a Bryston BCD-1 as a source, and I also have a Benchmark DAC1 which I have compared too. Both gives that distortion sound when I turn the volume up.
I put my speakers 3m apart, and I sit about 6m away. Toed in so I see in the inner third of the panel. As for loudness, I don't know how to judge, but it is definitely bearable and I can just start to hear the background hiss in recordings etc.

 

[DTB300]

I hope you are not using a dvd player for cd's for a revieling amp and pre pro will make your music sound harsh..

So ALL DVD players which play CD/SACD (Universal Players) will make your music sound harsh????

 

[twich54]

Sorry to hear of your problems.

Myself a Vantage owner for going on three years I can say I have NEVER had any of the issues you describe. My best guess is amplifiers AND OR room interactions...ie. acoustic issues ???? or a wierd cable anomolly ????

 

[Burke]

Thank you for all your quick replies.
What I'm experiencing does seem apart from harshness, some kind of distortion.
The piano sounds like a rougher version of a piano, and a female singer's voice sounds like she's got a sore throat(croaking) or something. It's not brightness, but just an unnatural sound.
At lower levels I can't hear them, either because there is no distortion or maybe the flaws in the CD just weren't heard.
Yes I agree with Beakman, with this set up, individual CDs have "incompatibilities" with the system where there is no one configuration for all CDs. A bit annoying but maybe this is true transparency haha, where all flaws in recording, mastering etc are revealed.

Anyone else have owned Innersound or Sanders amplifiers and would care to comment?

Thanks!

I own both the Sanders Monoblocks and the Sanders 2ch ESL, I have used both with my Summits and have never noticed any distortion like you describe. The piano sounds crisp and clear, as do the female vocals which I listen to a lot.

You will probably have to trace this down the hard way. Make one and only one change at a time. Start at either end and replace each component in turn, Source, interconnects, preamp, interconnects, amp, speaker wires, speakers. If the problem does not go away then but the original part back until you find the problem. If that does reveal the problem then check channel by channel (right/left) Sometimes the problem is only in one side but is hard to localize with both channels running.

--burke

 

[tonepub]

Didn't have any trouble at all with the Sanders when we had
them in for review...

 

[FISH_MAN]

what I meant was

So ALL DVD players which play CD/SACD (Universal Players) will make your music sound harsh????

most dvd players are really not meant to play cd's kind of an after thought and I have heard a lot of harsh music in them especially cheeper ones. I
think a lot of people use them anyway.can you try a reciever just to rule out the sanders gear a problem.

 

[DTB300]

most dvd players are really not meant to play cd's kind of an after thought and I have heard a lot of harsh music in them especially cheeper ones.

That is the KEY statement here - cheaper ones - not all Universals. I agree that the cheap ones - Oppo (great for Video) can and usually do sound harsh, but one has to be careful so generalizations are not made to cover all Universals.

Not all Universals sound harsh and one should not determine how a unit should sound just based on it being a Universal or dedicated. Both can sound VERY VERY good with CD/SACD when designed right and both can sound bad when designed wrong.

 

[Gordon]

I have used placement and some traps to correct what I percieved as distortion. I can listen at 75-85 db spl with no fatigue but normally the spl is about 60-70. I still get an occasional painful moment but I chalk that up to the cd.

If I really just crank on it, it will reach the point where the sound just becomes noise and is not listenable. I don't believe I'm clipping because for one, really pushing it the meters on the amps are about 100-150 watts. Second, my PowerGuard (clip light) has never even briefly illuminated. My guess, is my room size is limiting the ability of the equipment.

Gordon

 

[Maniax]

Here is an update:
I got the distributor for my Sanders pre-amp and amp down to have a listen to my system and troubleshoot. We swapped sources, interconnects, speaker cables, the pre-amp and amp, even to a hybrid power-amp just for kicks. It still does distort at higher volumes (which according to him isn't right for speakers of Martin Logan calibre, since small and cheap speakers in his shop can play much louder and cleaner). However, it does seem that the tubes in the hybrid power amp makes the distortion more palatable.

He also noted a resonance problem with my hall, but he feels it still doesn't account for the distortion at such a low volume and the kind of sound the distortion makes.

Thus I am stuck with a possible issue with my speakers. Hard to believe that both of them can fail and within 3 months of owning them. I have already contacted Martin Logan directly and will be waiting for their reply.

 

[FISH_MAN]

can you move them

move your speakers to another room or freinds house just for testing
to be shure. I once moved my vantages to a bad room I could have sworn they where broken in the move it was that dramatic of a difference.I would also hooke up some cheeper and more simple electronics to them to compare
the sound difference.

 

[bsckwan]

I find that the vantage is so revealing that even distortion (mostly overload) in the recordings can be heard very easily. I usually use some nice headphone to make sure it isn't the recording. In addition, could it be dust on the panels?

 

[FISH_MAN]

I know this is hardly high fi

when I whatch my sopranos dvd's the sound recording is so bad you can hear the voices crackle and overlode the mic's also other problems. the sound was done very poorly.
when I first heard it I thought that something was wrong then I put in
something that was thx I believe it was the revenge of the sith and all was well. freinds of mine also have some great systems that are not logans but they are good my most standards and you can not hear these problems on them.

 

[raygunn]

This sounds like a familiar issue...

I believe the amplifier you are using is a fairly high current amplifier.
As such, you can experience issues such as these if the amplifier is starved of that current due to a poor power circuit or a mis-matched aftermarket powercord.

Also, you do not mention if the the Vantages are new out of the box or the panels have been run-in for 100 hours or so. ES panels tend to change in sound quite a bit during break-in and even appear to have distorion and glare. These effects go away after proper break-in.

My $.02
I hope this helps.

Cheers,

Hi, I have a very frustrating problem on my hands.
I own a pair of Vantages, which are driven by the Sanders Esl pre-amp and amplifier(stereo, 360w into 8ohm, 600w into 4 ohm)

I notice for piano recordings and female vocals especially, during loud passages the high frequency information seems to become harsher and start to break up, instead of being smooth. Is this audible clipping distortion, or are my speakers being over driven?

The volume is being set at loud, but not ear-piercingly loud and definitely not loud levels, so I find this quite unacceptable to hear distortion at these levels. I have exchanged the cd player source, the pre-amp, the amp, and even used the Sanders monoblocks(800w into 8ohm) but the distortion still remains.

I am running out of ideas on what's causing the distortion. I really hope its not the speaker's limitations to play at that volume because I use them in a moderately sized hall and the levels I hear the distortion is just about right where I can hear the microdynamics.

Thanks in advance!