Ethan Winer may be on the verge of proving expensive interconnects don't matter.

[Pneumonic]

Pneumonic..... I just noticed your system.... fairly revealing I would say?? Maybe brutally so..... What cables do you use?

Not sure what you mean by the term revealing but, I can assure you that up until such time as my speakers are asked to do their job, the voltage being inputted to them, is error free (in terms surpassing known human threshold limits). This is true up to live level SPL's.

My speakers, like any other speaker, perform with audible errors in distortion.

My cabling is simple. DIY power cords (Belden 83803 w/ Marinco connectors), Sanders and Innersound speaker cable. I use Lessloss SPDIF and clock cable and Cardas and Tara Labs IC's. All digital plugs into Equitech (2Q).

 

[Pneumonic]

The answer is no. Your description ignores some pretty obvious confounding factors, like electrical noise, EMI, ground loops, etc. This is the problem that occurs when you try to over-simplify a very complex topic. The audio voltage signal does not travel along a cable in a vacuum.

True, but these errors will all be revealed when viewing the above voltage spectras. Signal analysis of <20k voltages is NOT complicated at all.

 

[Pneumonic]

The funny thing about that is that the person who designed his amps and speakers, a very capable engineer in his own right, seems to believe that cables do make a difference and sells a fairly expensive set of speaker cables specifically designed for electrostatic speakers.

Stats have unique features which make using cables that have been designed for magnetic speakers, a possible issue. Since the vast majority of speakers are magnetic, all but a few speaker cables have been designed specifically for their use. So, care must be used with such cables.

 

[Rich]

My cabling is simple. DIY power cords (Belden 83803 w/ Marinco connectors), Sanders and Innersound speaker cable. I use Lessloss SPDIF and clock cable and Cardas and Tara Labs IC's. All digital plugs into Equitech (2Q).

But why would you spend the extra money on Sanders, Cardas, and Tara labs cables when the objectivists on the forum, to which you seem to belong, believe they provide no sonic benefit over much less expensive options like zip cord and generic I.C.'s?

 

[twich54]

So I'll slip in an interconnect change and see if I can see a difference.

Justin, that would be awesome, for I can't imagine what you would 'hear' !

no worries, just helping Rich out with a ounce or two of levity .........

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Gordon,

Let me ask you something.

Given that every chain is defined by its weakest link, how is it possible to take many feet of 50 cent per foot solid core ROMEX and improve the quality of a VERY slow 60 HZ power signal.

There are no electromagnetics involved with a 60Hz signal. That is considered DC for EM purposes. It is extraordinarily easy for a wire to carry a 60Hz signal as long as it is rated properly for the current and length.

Carrying power is EASY EASY EASY and there is ZERO science needed to get AC power to your devices.

Then there is the whole issue where this is not even part of your music signal.

So even if you bypass the power signal from your power utility and use all kinds of conditioning equipment to create the most perfect 60 Hz power sine wave known to mankind, it still isn't part of your music signal.

That power goes into a Transformer and typically a rectifying bridge and gets turned into DC for many devices like your CD player, DAC, etc.. In that case your perfect sine wave is completely removed before the music chain begins.

So the AC signal is gone and you are left with FLAT DC voltage.

How is it possible for your music to sound different with different power cables?

 

[timm]

The funny thing about that is that the person who designed his amps and speakers, a very capable engineer in his own right, seems to believe that cables do make a difference and sells a fairly expensive set of speaker cables specifically designed for electrostatic speakers.

.....

Let me ask you rich..... on your DS -- did you try a different power cable....? I tried the signal power cable which I had purchased years back expecting to hear an improvement (the one made for digital devices/cd players etc... ) ... and I thought the sound was actually 'thinner'.... So I went back to the delivered power cord from PS Audio.... Now, I know that flies in the face of 'you fool - you paid more for that signal power cord - so obviously you think and have convinced yourself that it should sound better!!'... Well - I did pay for it... and I don't think it sounded better... in fact - I thought the delivered power cord (nothing fancy at all.... as you know Rich) .... sounded better.... Wondered if you had fiddled with the power cord on yours?

 

[Rich]

Stats have unique features which make using cables that have been designed for magnetic speakers, a possible issue. Since the vast majority of speakers are magnetic, all but a few speaker cables have been designed specifically for their use. So, care must be used with such cables.

I agree. But could Roger pick out his own cable vs. another in an A/B/X test? I suspect he could not. If not, does this mean he is wrong about cable design? Or is A/B/X testing a poor method for determining our ability to hear these differences? That is the million dollar question.

 

[Rich]

.....

Let me ask you rich..... on your DS -- did you try a different power cable....? I tried the signal power cable which I had purchased years back expecting to hear an improvement (the one made for digital devices/cd players etc... ) ... and I thought the sound was actually 'thinner'.... So I went back to the delivered power cord from PS Audio.... Now, I know that flies in the face of 'you fool - you paid more for that signal power cord - so obviously you think and have convinced yourself that it should sound better!!'... Well - I did pay for it... and I don't think it sounded better... in fact - I thought the delivered power cord (nothing fancy at all.... as you know Rich) .... sounded better.... Wondered if you had fiddled with the power cord on yours?

Honestly, I did no real testing on this. I used the Signal cable from the get-go and it is plugged into the P-10 power regenerator and the sound is perfect. So I never felt the need to test for any potential differences (and it is fairly labor intensive to do so in my system setup).

 

[timm]

This truly reminds me of the quote in a famous movie..... 'Nature finds a way.....' haha... The scientists among us surely know the movie!!

 

[RCHeliGuy]

I think this goes deeper than what we are talking about.

For some people this is a hobby and they are not happy unless they are tinkering and trying things out continually.

These people need to hear a difference because their life is focused around the chase. Their excitement in the hobby is defined by acquiring, and testing new equipment.

If the chase were over the hobby wouldn't be nearly as fun.

For these people there is a very real different to be heard because during the chase they are excited and the music sounds better, when their equipment is stagnant they are no longer excited about the chase and their music no longer sounds as good, so they start searching for something new and for a while there is a spark and excitement and the music sounds better.

I'd call this the audio version of thrill seeking. Without the thrill, the excitement is gone and without the excitement, the music doesn't sound as good.

So I think some people are defined by the chase which creates the excitement which makes the music sound better.

 

[timm]

are you using the digital cable he suggests? Mine is maroon with gold on it.... This is the one I tried..

 

[Rich]

are you using the digital cable he suggests? Mine is maroon with gold on it.... This is the one I tried..

Not sure what you're referring to here. Cable who suggests? I'm using the standard Signal Cable power cords bought years ago.

Edit: are you referring to the connection between transport and DAC?

 

[Pneumonic]

But why would you spend the extra money on Sanders, Cardas, and Tara labs cables when the objectivists on the forum, to which you seem to belong, believe they provide no sonic benefit over much less expensive options like zip cord and generic I.C.'s?

IC choice is important since the main job of them is to stop EMI/RFI from causing havoc on the voltage signal. Since not all IC's are created equally, when it comes time to reject such interference, care should be taken in picking the right product.

 

[Pneumonic]

I agree. But could Roger pick out his own cable vs. another in an A/B/X test? I suspect he could not. If not, does this mean he is wrong about cable design? Or is A/B/X testing a poor method for determining our ability to hear these differences? That is the million dollar question.

Too many uncontrolled variable in place to say with any certainty. I would submit that tossing the signal up on some test instrumentation equipment is the best answer to your question.

I wouldn't trust ABX testing as ultimate proof. I would, however, use it as a tool that corroborates what my measurements indicate.

 

[timm]

I think this goes deeper than what we are talking about.

For some people this is a hobby and they are not happy unless they are tinkering and trying things out continually.

These people need to hear a difference because their life is focused around the chase. Their excitement in the hobby is defined by acquiring, and testing new equipment.

If the chase were over the hobby wouldn't be nearly as fun.

For these people there is a very real different to be heard because during the chase they are excited and the music sounds better, when their equipment is stagnant they are no longer excited about the chase and their music no longer sounds as good, so they start searching for something new and for a while there is a spark and excitement and the music sounds better.

I'd call this the audio version of thrill seeking. Without the thrill, the excitement is gone and without the excitement, the music doesn't sound as good.

So I think some people are defined by the chase which creates the excitement which makes the music sound better.

I think some of this is true? But - it still doesn't explain why I would reject a power cable that I purchased over a delivered one given to me..(don't you think I wanted to hear a difference??... I sure did want to!! but certainly not in a negative sense).. And - when guys order 3 sets of speaker cables from the cable company - and compare and pick one over the other... unless you think they 'want' to hear a difference and therefore do..... Again, this could be true - but still doesn't really explain preference.... People reject the more expensive all of the time even when willing or even after they have purchased the more expensive.... So psychologically - it doesn't seem to tie together with what you are trying to say?

 

[Pneumonic]

I think this goes deeper than what we are talking about.

For some people this is a hobby and they are not happy unless they are tinkering and trying things out continually.

These people need to hear a difference because their life is focused around the chase. Their excitement in the hobby is defined by acquiring, and testing new equipment.

If the chase were over the hobby wouldn't be nearly as fun.

For these people there is a very real different to be heard because during the chase they are excited and the music sounds better, when their equipment is stagnant they are no longer excited about the chase and their music no longer sounds as good, so they start searching for something new and for a while there is a spark and excitement and the music sounds better.

I'd call this the audio version of thrill seeking. Without the thrill, the excitement is gone and without the excitement, the music doesn't sound as good.

So I think some people are defined by the chase which creates the excitement which makes the music sound better.

Interesting perspective.

One thing I have learned in all my years in this hobby is that audiophiles love the less than zero mark. By that I mean, they love adopting the lower is better mentality when it comes to audio equipment distortion ….. even though hard science has proven that human threshold of hearing has finite limits for distortion detection; limits that most any piece of properly performing audio equipment in use today, easily surpasses. For audio electronics anyhow; speakers are a different animal.

That is why I have constantly preached to pay proper attention to the levels of distortion involved in the equipment that you employ and don’t fret over the last, minuscule, level of distortion for it will be far below the level of audibility that your ear will be able to discern … provided that one does a proper listening test by accounting for all the pertinent variables (blind and level matched) involved.

 

[timm]

Not sure what you're referring to here. Cable who suggests? I'm using the standard Signal Cable power cords bought years ago.

Edit: are you referring to the connection between transport and DAC?

I am referring to the power cord that frank suggests for digital equipment..... not the really thick one he suggests for power amps...

 

[Gordon Gray]

For some people this is a hobby and they are not happy unless they are tinkering and trying things out continually.

Na. Your post is again presumptuous and without merit regarding myself. IMHO, you really should stop making gross generalizations to defend your personal biases.

I am not a "flipper". Never have been, never will be.

I will continue, over a sustained period of time, to make minor investments (minor being defined by a small amount of dollars when compared to total system investment) to maximize my system sound within a price / performance context.

Been doing it this way for decades and it has proven to be well worthwhile.

Again, I advise you to check out the What's Best Forum and read the various threads on Shunyata Research products.

 

[Rich]

That is why I have constantly preached to pay proper attention to the levels of distortion involved in the equipment that you employ and don’t fret over the last, minuscule, level of distortion for it will be far below the level of audibility that your ear will be able to discern … provided that one does a proper listening test by accounting for all the pertinent variables (blind and level matched) involved.

I will take the sound of my Conrad Johnson tube amp over the sound of many SS amps with much lower measurable levels of distortion, any day of the week. Our ears and brains know what they like, despite objective measurements that tell us what "should" sound better.