CLX Upgrade: Things To Be Aware Of

[Ron]

WTF? You cannot be serious. You'd have to have a lot of money to BURN before you considered this statement! Sorry.

A more likely scenario - what happens in --say-- six or seven years time, when you want to upgrade to the CLX II or CLXIII (or something else), but you can't get more than $50 for your worthless speakers because everyone with half a brain knows they threaten to become oversized paperweights at any time forthcoming, leaving you with a large rubbish tip fee and nothing to show for it.

That's where the true problem lies. Name any audiophile who has had the same speaker for 15 years. Resale is a HUGE consideration!

Sorry for my statement. I was not aware of the huge increase in price for the panels, and quality control as others have spoken.

 

[BruceS]

Thanks for all of the comments guys.
I admit admit that I am more than a little shocked.
While I follow closely the planar circle & planar asylum (and post fairly regularly at the planar circle) there is not a lot of discussion about Martin Logan.
While I knew about Paradigm taking over I did not know that a venture capital company was involve (& this scares me!).
I also had no idea about the hike in replacement panel costs, the doubtful future of replacement panels, the reliability problems or the poor resale value.
I suppose I naively assumed that ML were on top of panel reliability like the (electrostat manufacturing) company which talks about its products as "heirlooms" or the other one which has a cat resting against the live panel!
That's why I came over here, to find out the real state of play.
Actually I am a ML owner, I have two dynamo subs which I have had no problems with and whose questions I had very promptly answered.
My new full range electrostat upgrade is a shortlist of two, the CLX and another from a well known ELS manufacturer.
I am here doing my homework and I really appreciate all of the comments.
Please keep them coming!
Meanwhile I am sitting back deciding which full range electrostat is going to last me the next twenty years!
Regards
Bruce

 

[BruceS]

So Much Food For Thought!

Thanks for all of the comments guys.
I admit admit that I am more than a little shocked.
While I follow closely the planar circle & planar asylum (and post fairly regularly at the planar circle) there is not a lot of discussion about Martin Logan.
While I knew about Paradigm taking over I did not know that a venture capital company was involve (& this scares me!).
I also had no idea about the hike in replacement panel costs, the doubtful future of replacement panels, the reliability problems or the poor resale value.
I suppose I naively assumed that ML were on top of panel reliability like the (electrostat manufacturing) company which talks about its products as "heirlooms" or the other one which has a cat resting against the live panel!
That's why I came over here, to find out the real state of play.
Actually I am a ML owner, I have two dynamo subs which I have had no problems with and whose questions I had very promptly answered.
My new full range electrostat upgrade is a shortlist of two, the CLX and another from a well known ELS manufacturer.
I am here doing my homework and I really appreciate all of the comments.
Please keep them coming!
Meanwhile I am sitting back deciding which full range electrostat is going to last me the next twenty years!
Regards
Bruce

 

[BruceS]

Sorry about the double posting.
Still finding my way.
Bruce

 

[Horchem1972]

As Rich stated that Summit panels were $2400, I would not be surprised to see CLX panels cost ten to fifteen thousand for both if not more. That is a huge chance to take considering you only get a five year panel warranty. Nobody used to worry about 5 year panel warranties because panelsc were very reasonably priced. Now that certain legacy models are no longer servicable it has become a huge factor.

 

[Rich]

For context, let me say that I did a little research and found that Roger Sanders offers a "panel and crossover upgrade" for his Innersound Eros electrostatic speakers for $3,000. A few things to consider about this: Innersound is a defunct company that was once run by Roger but went under when he took on an unscrupulous business partner. Roger is under no legal duty to continue servicing Innersound products, but he still does it anyway . . . because it is the RIGHT thing to do (Take a lesson from that, ML!). Roger is a very small company, with just himself and a few employees, not a big multi-national corporate-owned company like ML. I don't think Roger sold that many Innersound speakers, certainly not the way ML is selling tons of electrostats, so he would have to purchase components in much smaller quantities and simply not have the buying power that ML has for parts. Roger's panel does not use metal grids like ML, but rather they use his own proprietary "high-value insulators" to carry the voltage charge. From what I know, I would conclude that panel construction for his panels is a much more complex and time-consuming process than construction of ML's panels. Also, Roger is not just offering "replacement" panels, but rather an upgrade to his latest "Ultrastat" panel technology and he includes a sophisticated electronic crossover upgrade in the deal. Thus, the panel and electronics are both upgraded for this price. Finally, Roger claims that he has never had one of his Ultrastat panels fail and they show no output loss over many years of use; so if you buy one of his speakers, you aren't looking at mandatory replacement of the panel in ten or fifteen years.

All of these factors confirm my suspicions that ML is intentionally gouging its customers with these price increases. If they included upgraded electronics in the price, perhaps it would make more sense. But charging thousands of dollars for a pair of panels that consists of two pieces of stamped metal sandwiching a piece of mylar film that takes a trained person maybe thirty minutes to put together? Ludicrous.

I can't recommend Roger Sanders speakers highly enough. They have much better imaging and soundstaging in the sweetspot than Martin Logans, while giving up a little quality on off-axis listening. Anyone considering spending money on one of Martin Logan's higher end electrotats owes it to themselves to audition one of Roger's speakers. He offers a free in-home trial, as well.

 

[Hocky]

Sander's stuff is top notch and sounds great - definitely superior to the Summit X as long as you're only doing 2 channel for a single listener and can accept the visual styling.

 

[tsv_1]

Can't disagree with the points being made here... panel replacement costs will drive a certain percentage of prospective buyers away. That said, there are at least some (like me) who do not plan to own their current speakers for another 15 years (coffin shaped speaker box jokes aside). While I've not heard a more resolving speaker than the CLX (which is why I own them now), I'm certain something else will pique my interest down the road. Will I take a bath wrt resale when I eventually sell? Probably - but I'm thrilled with the performance I have now and I consider enjoyment as the primary investement (as opposed to recouping money a decade or two down the line). At any rate let's hope ML re-evaluates their current path, and chooses one that not only brings them new customers, but helps keep their existing customers loyal.

 

[Ron]

If I knew then what I know now, I would still own the CLX's. They give me total pleasure with music and movies.

 

[Necrosuit]

Can't disagree with the points being made here... panel replacement costs will drive a certain percentage of prospective buyers away. That said, there are at least some (like me) who do not plan to own their current speakers for another 15 years (coffin shaped speaker box jokes aside). While I've not heard a more resolving speaker than the CLX (which is why I own them now), I'm certain something else will pique my interest down the road. Will I take a bath wrt resale when I eventually sell? Probably - but I'm thrilled with the performance I have now and I consider enjoyment as the primary investement (as opposed to recouping money a decade or two down the line). At any rate let's hope ML re-evaluates their current path, and chooses one that not only brings them new customers, but helps keep their existing customers loyal.

Thank you Todd! Enjoy what you can while you can, period. I personally live a life of NOW not maybe. Dont buy a Ferrari if your worried about gas or brakes or shocks or engine or fun! Just buy the cheap Kia and have no money worries. I have an email from ML in Early 2011 that stated CLX replacemnt panels (4) was $3000.00. Im sure its more by now. So what. If your that worried about $$ then get a speaker or system you dont have to worry about. Easy.

 

[amey01]

. If your that worried about $$ then get a speaker or system you dont have to worry about. Easy.

Of course it is easy. That is exactly what most people here are saying they're gonig to do. Shame really.

 

[Rich]

If your that worried about $$ then get a speaker or system you dont have to worry about. Easy.

Right. Because no one considering a $25,000 purchase should be concerned about quality control issues, customer support issues, or lack of availability of consumable parts, or potential huge drop in resale values because of all the above.

Glad you love your CLX, but honestly there are plenty of great speakers out there that match or beat it, from companies that seem to treat their customer base a lot better than ML does. You act like the only choice people have is between the Ferrari and the Kia. Sorry, but there are a lot of great cars out there besides the Ferrari and for those who don't have money to just throw into the trash another high end model from a different manufacturer may very well fit the bill. To chastise someone for considering these issues when making such a substantial purchase sounds completely foolish to me.

 

[Necrosuit]

Rich, I 100% agree with you on better speaker and car choices or anything for that matter. its all pernonal taste. I actually considered getting rid of the CLX for Wilsons. My father and I have had nothing but amazing support from ML for the last 20 years and have had no issues with all our variations of ML speakers. QC seems fine to me and the support to me has been stellar. I think its foolish to buy something for pleasure that your worried about selling without losing too much money before you even buy them. I did not mean to Chastize anyone here. Just saying enjoy life a little bit.

 

[MOON]

I think its foolish to buy something for pleasure that your worried about selling without losing too much money before you even buy them. I did not mean to Chastize anyone here. Just saying enjoy life a little bit.

Your money grows on tree's attitude is too condesending!!

You are missing the whole point. ML raised the prices of panels 3x and didn't say boo.We feel we are being fleeced with the outrageous price increase which in most members eye's is too much.Your missing the resale point as well. Who is going to buy used Summits for 5 K and know they will have to spend almost 1/2 that again $2400 on replacement panels, no one will. Your sitting with a boat anchor.

This is my last pair if the situation isn't reversed such as Ml did with the no more panels for lagecy models.I did have over the top customer service in the Jim Power days, however that is gone.

 

[Horchem1972]

Thank you Todd! Enjoy what you can while you can, period. I personally live a life of NOW not maybe. Dont buy a Ferrari if your worried about gas or brakes or shocks or engine or fun! Just buy the cheap Kia and have no money worries. I have an email from ML in Early 2011 that stated CLX replacemnt panels (4) was $3000.00. Im sure its more by now. So what. If your that worried about $$ then get a speaker or system you dont have to worry about. Easy.

The CLX panels prices you were quoted are way off. I just called Martin Logan and a single bass panel is $2591 a piece or $5182 for the pair. The treble panels are $1750 per panel or $3500 for the pair. To replace all four panels is $8682 and they only come with 5 year warranties. Plus whatever they charge for shipping which will be quite a bit because they charge $150 just to ship a pair of Monolith II panels which are way smaller. So my guess of in the ten thousand dollar range was not very far off. Your example is what has always been wrong with the high end audio scene. You come across that if you cannot afford the CLX speakers, you are second class which is highly offensive to many members on this forum.

 

[Necrosuit]

Whoe! that is abit way off par for panel quote. ok I apologize if I have offended anyone. No intention of doing so.

 

[Hocky]

The CLX panels prices you were quoted are way off. I just called Martin Logan and a single bass panel is $2591 a piece or $5182 for the pair. The treble panels are $1750 per panel or $3500 for the pair. To replace all four panels is $8682 and they only come with 5 year warranties. Plus whatever they charge for shipping which will be quite a bit because they charge $150 just to ship a pair of Monolith II panels which are way smaller. So my guess of in the ten thousand dollar range was not very far off. Your example is what has always been wrong with the high end audio scene. You come across that if you cannot afford the CLX speakers, you are second class which is highly offensive to many members on this forum.

That sounds right to me since it follows their tripling of prices for most other models.

 

[Necrosuit]

when did this "tripling" of panel price happen?

 

[Hocky]

Not sure, but pretty recently.

 

[User211]

To replace all four panels is $8682 and they only come with 5 year warranties.

Joke expensive. I have to say none of my panels lasted more than 7 years (used MLs for 20 years) before I noticed a drop in performance. Pay $25K and then get hit with a $9K bill 6-7 years later? Not on.