Brightness/Harshness revisited

[Webinattor]

Good Morning.

Ok, so I've been dealing with this harshness/brightness issue after replacing my Aerius I panels with new ones.

The forum has suggested:
A. The new panels are more revealing of my sound sources and that
B. I am hearing the true SQ of my Yamaha receiver.

Over the past 4 weeks, I have done the following to my setup to try and get rid of this harshness issue:

Purchased new outboard amp
Purchased new interconnects
Used DeOxit and DeOxit Gold on all connections
Switched from using a Toslink connection and purchased and tried a new coaxial cable connection. First time to try that connection.
Worked with speaker placement and alignment again, and again.
Called Yamaha and asked for instructions on resetting Yamaha to factory specs. Did that.

Still had harshness after doing all the above.

Last night, I removed the coaxial and Toslink connections and just hooked up my components using RCA outs to receiver. This is the first time I have hooked up like that. Since I purchased my gear pretty much all at once, I just used the Toslink until last night.

The harshess went away, I did seem to lose some clarity or treble, perhaps.
I did seem to lose about 3db or so of output using that connection method. That's ok, I get more travel in my volume control.

My questions are:

Is this the preferred method of connection for SQ? (RCA's out from components to receiver, rather than Toslink or coaxial?)

Why the 3db or so lower volume?

Is this connection type just rolling off my highs, thus eliminating brightness?

This is all been driving me nuts. I just want my "old sound quality back" and have been having a tough time smiling at my system of late, let alone getting anything done at work.

Thanks for your assistance.

 

[Cherian]

Sounds like you like the DAC in the CDP over the one in the receiver. I find that DACs can add to or take away from the sound. It is a just a matter of the type of sound you like.

 

[TomDac]

how many hours on on the panels? Are they fully broken in yet?

 

[Webinattor]

Yes, they should be broken in. Replaced in Feb. Jim Powers said he'd check the electronics, if I would send them in. Haven't done that yet. May end up doing that next...hate to totally lose my system for a few weeks. That is what is keeping me from sending the electronics in. I looked inside back there...looked ok, but Jim said you can't really tell by looking.

I like your new room treatment btw. That looks real nice and contemporary. My wife likes to watch HGTV during the weekends for all those do it yourself interior design tips.

 

[User211]

Hmm - I remember it taking forever and a day for my replacement Aerius panels to break in many years ago. And they did sound too bright for a good long while (months, in fact). However, when I recently replaced my Ascent panels, they were basically great from the word go...

At a total loss to explain it, to be honest. Or your connection observations.

That's a pretty nice offer from Jim, BTW.

Good luck. It's a complete b*mm*r when your system doesn't behave.

 

[Webinattor]

Hmm - I remember it taking forever and a day for my replacement Aerius panels to break in many years ago. And they did sound too bright for a good long while (months, in fact). However, when I recently replaced my Ascent panels, they were basically great from the word go...

At a total loss to explain it, to be honest. Or your connection observations.

That's a pretty nice offer from Jim, BTW.

Good luck. It's a complete b*mm*r when your system doesn't behave.

Well, looks like I will send 'em in and see whats what. I have been sitting on my RMA, cause I just thought it couldn't be anything with the speakers/internals.

 

[Nielsen]

:music:You say you have a Yamaha receiver, does it have room correction? If so you can use it, or the treble controls to your taste, thats why they are there.

 

[Webinattor]

I don't have a room correction mode on my particular unit. Didn't need it, anyway before the panel upgrade. Always ran everything flat. But, you have a point with the treble control.

I grew up with the notion that adjusting that control would be heresey.

 

[JonFo]

...

I grew up with the notion that adjusting that control would be heresey.

Yet you put the speaker in a room that has +/- 15dB impact on the frequency response of the system and that's OK?

Approriate room treatments my freind, plus a good dose of quality EQ = good sound.

 

[Webinattor]

See, I knew I'd get in trouble for that one!

 

[Rich]

Last night, I removed the coaxial and Toslink connections and just hooked up my components using RCA outs to receiver. This is the first time I have hooked up like that. Since I purchased my gear pretty much all at once, I just used the Toslink until last night.

The harshess went away, I did seem to lose some clarity or treble, perhaps.
I did seem to lose about 3db or so of output using that connection method. That's ok, I get more travel in my volume control.

I believe you have confirmed that the problem is your Yamaha. When you run a digital out (coax or toslink) from your CD player, then the Yamaha DAC is converting the signal. When you run analog outs, your CD player's DAC is converting the signal. Either way, I think you will get the best sound quality for stereo listening by ditching the Yamaha in favor of a quality separate preamp.

Your finding does not surprise me. I have a Yamaha receiver and find it to be overly harsh and bright.

 

[preston]

I agree with Rich; I do not think there is any reason to bother sending in the MLs if you have confirmed issue is not the MLs. However, I think you do need to either upgrade or service your Yamaha receiver, which is clearly not playing your ML to their fullest potential.

If I were you, I would think about where your MLs fall relative to all speakers, say on a scale of 1 to 10, then try to find some components that are similarly rated.

Given the overwhelming importance of speakers, placement and room acoustics in a system, I generally spend relatively less on the electronics/cables; if you are on a budget, you might look for components that are rated (much) better than your Yamaha receiver but are not quite as well rated as your MLs. Good luck figuring that out!

We will all be interested in your decision making process.

Best,

 

[Webinattor]

Thanks guys. I am listening to you.

Let me take this on a different angle for a minute. I guess my receiver has only 20-bit 48 khz DACs.

What if I got a new receiver with 24 bit 96khz DACs or one with Burr-Brown 192kHz/24-bit DACs used in all channels.

Do you think this would help, using the preamp outs to my new amp?

I don't have a ton of money right now and am trying...

I have a 3 hour drive back and forth to work and don't get a whole lot of time to play with my setup. Just want it to sound better so I can relax when I get home...

 

[Rich]

It really all depends on the quality of the component. A component can have a great DAC and still sound like crap if the rest of it is cheaply constructed. As a general rule, integrated receivers are not the highest quality components for two-channel listening. Of course, there are exceptions to every rule. But I think you would be a lot better off dealing with poor sound for a little while, saving your money, and buying a quality two-channel preamp, than trying to skimp and buy another receiver. Just my opinion, of course. But you must understand that your ML's are going to be ruthlessly revealing of the limitations of your upstream components.

 

[Webinattor]

Thank you Rich,

for being my voice of reason. I was about to plunk down. Realistically, what I should do is wait for the pre-processor to come out that matches this new amp I purchased. Will be months until its released, so I will have some waiting to do.

Tks for the input.

 

[Nielsen]

Maybe I missed it, but it would help us to comment if you mention what components you have. Model no: of receiver, cd player etc. Stereo or home theater, size of listening room, speaker positioning and so on.
For starters, I have a Bryston amp with built-in upsampling dac. Its very very clean sounding overall, but sepecially the top end is sparkling distinct and extremely detailed, but I have yet to experience any harshness, except on extremely bad recordings.
I do not hear a difference between my dvd players digital output into the dac compared to digital out into same dac from my Squeezebox, but I certainly hear a difference between the Squeezebox dac and my Bryston dac.
The Squeezebox dac is BurrBrown.

The dac in your cd player is almost certainly better than the one in the receiver, so I would use that. So use rca analogue out from cd player to a line in on your Yamaha.
If you want some improvement to your sound you should buy an excellent stereo integrated amplifier, and an outboard dac. The outboard dac will certainly have more inputs, so you can also use it with a satellite decoder, and other equipment with digital out.
One more thing, Reference Audio did a measurement of some (new) home theater receivers and Harman Kardon was the only one keeping their specs.
A Denon receiver stated to be 7 x 140 watts delivered 53 watts, a Yamaha speced at 140 watts delivered 33 watts, an Onkyo speced at 140 watts delivered 26 watts per channel!!
An integrated amp, like Denon PMA-2000, or equivalent will punish the receiver and make it scream for mercy.
Using a separate power amp with your Yamaha might work wonders, and it might not. Some receivers are also not particilarly strong in the preamp section....
But again, its hard for me to comment since I dont know which receiver you have.

 

[Webinattor]

Nielson,

Stereo Gear Model #s
You can probably see the quality level/price points of my gear from this.

Sanyo PLC-XU30 projector (This is my television.)
Martin Logan Aerius i electrostatic loudspeakers/birewire/new panels in Feb. 2008
Yamaha RX-V995 digital receiver now ONLY using preamp outputs to an
Emotiva LPA-1 7 channel amplifier. (3 weeks old)
Motorola 6400 Dual HD tuner/DVR box....via Comcast Cable (Now THIS area is where 70 percent of my harshness listening is coming from on a day to day basis.)

Yamaha DVD-S796 dvd player. This is also my CD player. Dont have a stand alone.
M&K V-75 MK-II subwoofer
MB Quart balcony diapole surrounds
Polk Audio CLS-350 center
Monster Cable Interconnects
Monster Cable Speaker leads
Phillips Pronto Remote Control System


I have to say, I was really really pleased with my sound...until the panel replacement...that's when the brightness came back. Mostly while listening to the DVR tuner tho... Please post if you see anything thats "out of sorts."

 

[Nielsen]

Very nice system indeed!
Uhm, difficult. Do you have analog rca out from the Motorola ? You could try that also, if that is not harsh then you definately have a problem with the dac in your Yamaha I think, since its the same problem as with the dvd player.
I think you will do right in planning a replacement for the Yamaha...

 

[JonFo]

...
I have a 3 hour drive back and forth to work and don't get a whole lot of time to play with my setup. Just want it to sound better so I can relax when I get home...

Wow, dude I feel for you and totally sympathize, as I have a 1.5 hr commute each way (100 miles a day). Relaxing with the ML's as I'm doing now is what keeps me sane (although some say it's too late)

 

[Webinattor]

Jonfo,

I didn't mean 3 hours one way...still...you and I both know how we feel doing that much driving. I feel like the guy in the commerical in the 80's..."Time to make the donuts."