Better sound than CD?

[snyderkv]

MLO,

I'm a little lost trying to reach higher musical fidelity with my Martin Logan EFX/Spires with all the new tech out there. I want to do more than just play music out of my PS3. I do have a $2k NAD M56 but can't hear the difference in sound between the two. My room acoustics and cables are NOT going to change. Also, at my volume levels I can't immediatly hear a differnce between my seperates and my NAD T787 so I'm sticking with the integrated.

The last place I'm looking at is an external DAC like the NAD M51 which seems perform the same function as the Bel Canto REFLink Asynchronous USB Converter when playing music from a computer via USB/HDMI?

I've been downloading MP3s from Amazon which I don't think are lossless and would be played from a USB/HDMI on my laptop or an iPod connected to the AVR

Will I be on the right track to hearing an obvious sonic benefit? What are you guys doing to get better than CD quality sound?

Thanks for the assistance.

 

[Rich]

1. Room acoustics / acoustic treatments are probably the most important component of your system for sonic fidelity. If they aren't going to change, then your fidelity probably isn't going to change a lot either.

2. Lossy MP3's will never sound better, or even as good on most systems, as a CD. Higher resolution downloads, as well as SACD and other high res formats, will (potentially) sound better.

3. You don't have to go new tech for greater fidelity. Vinyl albums will still outperform CDs in most ways.

4. Every component matters, from the source to the pre to the amps. Integrateds tend to perform worse with Logans than separates, but this is not absolute. But "home theater receivers" like your NAD are generally a poor choice for musical fidelity with a pair of Logans.

5. Reread number one. If your room acoustics are very poor, the other things you try to do to improve the sound may be for naught. The room acoustics (assuming proper speaker setup) are probably the single biggest factor in the musical fidelity of your speakers.

 

[snyderkv]

1. Room acoustics / acoustic treatments are probably the most important component of your system for sonic fidelity. If they aren't going to change, then your fidelity probably isn't going to change a lot either.

2. Lossy MP3's will never sound better, or even as good on most systems, as a CD. Higher resolution downloads, as well as SACD and other high res formats, will (potentially) sound better.

3. You don't have to go new tech for greater fidelity. Vinyl albums will still outperform CDs in most ways.

4. Every component matters, from the source to the pre to the amps. Integrateds tend to perform worse with Logans than separates, but this is not absolute. But "home theater receivers" like your NAD are generally a poor choice for musical fidelity with a pair of Logans.

5. Reread number one. If your room acoustics are very poor, the other things you try to do to improve the sound may be for naught. The room acoustics (assuming proper speaker setup) are probably the single biggest factor in the musical fidelity of your speakers.

Thanks for the response. My post was focused on DACs and source material wiithout going into other areas along the chain including AMPs. I can't tell the differnce between my seperates and my integrated when played under clipping so I'm selling the seperates. The post is in regards to DACs and where other people get their source material form. I've written off SACD because I don't want to pile on gear for a couple songs as most of the music I listen to is not available in SACD and the fact that well mastered CDs sound just as good. I have read about Blu-Ray Audio being very revealing with the M51. Two, the NAD M51 DAC seems to be differen than other DACs as it converts PCM to PWM and possibly upsamples? Then you have the Bel Canto which will clean up the clocking on USB connected devices like from a computer but think that may be built into the NAD. Roberto uses the Bel Canto fyi. I understand everything in the chain but I'm trying to improve my system in a specific area without turning my living room into a dedicated studio. If the ansewr is, if you can't max out your room acoustics then sell your Spires and buy bose because you won't hear a difference, then I'm ok with that. But I'd rather try other avenues like DACs/Source

 

[Rich]

If the ansewr is, if you can't max out your room acoustics then sell your Spires and buy bose because you won't hear a difference, then I'm ok with that. But I'd rather try other avenues like DACs/Source

If your source material sucks, then a great DAC isn't likely to make much difference. With high resolution files, it very well may. Ultimately, the only way to know if it will help you is to audition it in your system. I listen mostly to CD's (and few SACD's) on a high-end CD player and the fidelity is jaw-dropping. But I also have a high-end preamp, superb amps designed specifically for ESL speakers, and a dedicated, highly treated room. Ultimately, I don't think you are going to hear the full capabilities of your speakers just by upgrading your DAC. As I said above, every component matters, from the source to the pre to the amps and especially the room.

I understand the point that your post is more focused on DACS than other components . . . and I am not trying to be condescending, but honestly, from what you have said, you can't hear the difference between your PS3 and your CD player, you can't hear the difference between your separates and your home theater receiver, you apparently don't hear a difference between compressed MP3's and CDs, and you have no interest in changing cables or addressing room acoustics . . . yet you seem somewhat convinced that a new DAC will suddenly give you the sonic fidelity you are searching for??? I honestly will be surprised if you hear a difference with a new DAC, but as I said the only way to know for sure is to audition it in your system. Trying to gain insight on what you might hear by comparing to people like Roberto, who have maximized every aspect of their system, is like comparing apples to oranges. Good luck.

 

[roberto]

Hola chicos!... I am going to chime here. Rich is right!... you have to dedicate some time to your room acoustics. But usually the difference is at the surrounded musician(s) playing with the main artist. You must listen all. And also, you have to get the feeling of the main artist. The Bel Canto is offering to me, to be able to listen music (note the word music) without the stress and bad quality of youtube. It really cleans up all the garbage and the distortion coming from the MP-3 too. But as Rich said, you can not make any comparison, if the source is bad quality. The analogue gear, is offering to you always, great quality sound. At digital, you do not. But when it is singing right, it is a great challenger. You really can enjoy digital as much as analogue. Follow Rich recommendations, we are honor to have people like him here at the forum. Happy listening!

 

[snyderkv]

Hola chicos!... I am going to chime here. Rich is right!... you have to dedicate some time to your room acoustics. But usually the difference is at the surrounded musician(s) playing with the main artist. You must listen all. And also, you have to get the feeling of the main artist. The Bel Canto is offering to me, to be able to listen music (note the word music) without the stress and bad quality of youtube. It really cleans up all the garbage and the distortion coming from the MP-3 too. But as Rich said, you can not make any comparison, if the source is bad quality. The analogue gear, is offering to you always, great quality sound. At digital, you do not. But when it is singing right, it is a great challenger. You really can enjoy digital as much as analogue. Follow Rich recommendations, we are honor to have people like him here at the forum. Happy listening!

Thanks, so what sites offer music in hi-res? Also, I'm assuming your Bel Canto uLink just cleans up the signal from USB and computer noise and not actually improve the sonic qualites over standard CD or are you refering to the Bel Canto DAC above? I think the NAD is doing both what the DAC and Ulink does by cleaning up the clocks etc.

 

[roberto]

The Bel Canto that I am using now is the Reference Link. It only has an USB input, with 3 outputs, one coax (BNC connector) a balanced digital signal, and optical ST. The unis comes with a female BNC converter to female coax. This is the connection that I am using to my M-DAC. If you want to know easy what this unit does, just play youtube music, and there, you will know right away what it is doing to the digital info through the USB. I have the Bel Canto CD2 transport, and I had made comparisons between AIFF 44.1 KHZ/16 bit from the computer, and using the same cd at the CD2, playing both at the same time, and changing the inputs, without knowing which input I was getting, and always, I have to be honest with you, I knew when the CD2 was playing and when the computer was playing, but the truth is, both are very good! A reason why now, I am enjoying computer music that much. The sound is pleasant, undistorted, very good image, and I can get the feeling of the musician(s). The timbre is right, and very dynamic. Sometimes I catch myself taping with my feet the floor along with the music. This is a good signal for me. High resolution music I find it here: https://www.hdtracks.com/ Happy listening!

 

[snyderkv]

Thanks a bunch

I tried HDTracks a while ago and found out that most of the music I listen to is not recorded in hi-res. I'll just download what I can. ;( Thanks for the help

 

[coolcobramatt]

When I want the best possible sound DVD-audio tops cd hands down. SACD is a step up as well but those are harder to find and usually much more expensive. Get yourself a universal player and have fun!

 

[slowGEEZR]

Room acoustics will offer the quickest, easiest and most improvement. The room is everything! But, yes equipment does matter. A good DAC will sound much better than a mediocre CD player, as I've experienced with my QB-9 versus my Pioneer Elite player. The key is to get the room sounding right and then you will be able to more fully experience the differences each piece of gear brings. Most of us learn the hard way though and spend thousands of dollars upgrading gear until we discover what room acoustics do for the sound. Rich and Roberto know what they are talking about.

Check out these sites and you may find treatments that will fit your decor and wallet...

http://www.atsacoustics.com/
http://coreaudiodesigns.com/
http://gikacoustics.com/
http://www.realtraps.com/
http://www.vicoustic.com/VN/Homecinema/default.asp

 

[roberto]

Room acoustics will offer the quickest, easiest and most improvement. The room is everything! But, yes equipment does matter. A good DAC will sound much better than a mediocre CD player, as I've experienced with my QB-9 versus my Pioneer Elite player. The key is to get the room sounding right and then you will be able to more fully experience the differences each piece of gear brings. Most of us learn the hard way though and spend thousands of dollars upgrading gear until we discover what room acoustics do for the sound. Rich and Roberto know what they are talking about.

Check out these sites and you may find treatments that will fit your decor and wallet...

http://www.atsacoustics.com/
http://coreaudiodesigns.com/
http://gikacoustics.com/
http://www.realtraps.com/
http://www.vicoustic.com/VN/Homecinema/default.asp

Yup!!!!:bowdown: Room acoustics is a must, specially if you do care about the quality sound, the stage, the depth of the stage, giving to you a truly 3D sound with a pair of speakers. Also you get the right size of the instruments, and the feeling of the musician(s). Room acoustics takes away the unwanted resonances that are inherent in every room and spoils or you do not get all the good things that your speaker are capable to award. Here, one inch makes a big difference! :ROFL:Happy listening. :rocker:

 

[coolcobramatt]

Rich and Roberto know what they are talking about.

So are you saying the rest of us don't :ROFL:

 

[Leon]

So are you saying the rest of us don't :ROFL:

At least they're posting posts with more substance than some others...

 

[roberto]

Hola Chicos. I love your jokes. But the truth here, is that he was refer to Rich and I, because we were the only ones that were talking to snyderkv, then Steve came with all room acoustics recommendation. You have your ears, to make up any decision, and all here, at the forum, respect everyone as equal... What I like, nothing has to do with your own liking, and all of us, respect you. When we get questions like his, we try to answer them with the best, honest and humble standing. He is not saying that we, Rich and I, have the forefront truth and you should follow our standings. No. You should try what we say and believe. The most important tools that we have, are the ears: Trust them!. With a commentary like that, (even making a joke of it) could make others to feel that we are not taking you right, and could make some, who are helping us, and you, not to feel good. All of us here, deserve the respect and acceptance with all our members. The little knowledge that I might have is because I have been with ML since 1987 as a ML distributor here in Costa Rica. Also I have a workshop where I had serviced most all hi-end brands. Sometimes my English it not too good, and I can not express my ideas clearly as I wanted to. Please, understand my position. My advices might be not necessary what you were looking for, but I assure you, that I give them honestly, trying not to be as the only advice, and also, with respect. Happy listening!

 

[slowGEEZR]

So are you saying the rest of us don't :ROFL:

Oops! My bad!

 

[Bobbsy]

You don't need a $1500 DAC. You need to start with your source material.

First of, the words "quality" and "MP3" don't belong in the same sentence. MP3s are highly compressed and use tons of psycho acoustic tricks to throw away most of the musical information and hide the artefacts from you. However, listen to an original CD recording and an MP3 copy of that recording and the difference is genuine. The MP3 will have no frequencies about about 16k and a generally flat and "woolly" sound.

Just to make the point, here's a spectrum analyser plot of an original wave (PCM) file from a CD:

...and here's exactly the same music converted to 128kbps MP3:

There ARE sources that will sell you original wave files for download. Failing that, CD quality is about the best you're going to get short of doing your own recordings!

Having said all that, if you're using the headphone output of your computer and the built in sound card, there is room for improvement but you don't need a $1500 NAD unless you want all the extra features like AES, video and so on. Instead, have a look at the sort of USB audio interfaces used in studio and home studio recording. At an affordable price, look at the Focusrite Saffire range...or, for more money, something like the MOTU Microbook II gives excellent studio quality sound.

...and if you ever get into your own recording, they have good mic pre amps as well.

 

[slowGEEZR]

Another info point. A friend brought his $8000 DAC over to my place, to compare its sound to my $2400 DAC. His sounded better to our ears (damn!). His DAC has a lot of upsampling choices and filter choices, all which affected the sound.

 

[Bernard]

Another info point. A friend brought his $8000 DAC over to my place, to compare its sound to my $2400 DAC. His sounded better to our ears (damn!). His DAC has a lot of upsampling choices and filter choices, all which affected the sound.

Was that the Calyx Femto DAC?

 

[slowGEEZR]

No, an Esoteric.